Posted on 07/13/2007 7:28:01 PM PDT by restornu
Jesus is the Savior of the world, the Son of God, and that God created humankind in his image for the purpose of bringing us to a joyful reunion with him, after we had learned to control the desires of the flesh and turn our lives over to him, and after the grace of Christ has cleansed us of our guilt for the many sins we have committed.
I can’t seem to find any verse in the Bible at all saying that Ham was black, let alone the first black man as you claim. Even if you accept that claim, he was long dead before Lehi left Jerusalem and nothing in the verse is mutually exclusive of what the Bible says of Ham so there is no contradiction.
Those are fictions conjure up in your mind, others also conjured up the worst about the Savior in order to Crucified him, and the same happen to his servants after the Lord left he earth.
You folks believe in a fairy tales of what your God should be instead of what is real that going for the gold is to be tried and tested.
Meaning to have eternal life must one go through the refiner’s fire
1. Zech. 13:
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
2. Mal. 3:
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3. 3 Ne. 24:
2 But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap.
4. D&C 128:
24 Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand; and who can abide the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.
“Ham walked the earth as a black man long before them, so black skin cannot be the sign of a curse.”
First, the BoM verse you cited said the purpose of darkening the skin was to allow the Nephites to keep themselve separate from the Lamanites who were in rebellion against God. Second, there is no logic whatsoever in saying that because there already were black people that God can’t darken the skin of another people. God can strike people blind, deaf, or dumb as well even though there are already people around who naturally have those conditions.
All you have to do is post a verse from the bible that says ‘A’ and a verse from the BoM that says ‘not A’, but you can’t seem to find such a pair. I’m not surprised.
As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.
He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary's cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.
We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.
He rose from the grave to "become the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His "other sheep" (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised "dispensation of the fulness of times" (Ephesians 1:10).
Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: "His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
"I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father" (D&C 110:3–4).
Of Him the Prophet also declared: "And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
"For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
"That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God" (D&C 76:22–24). We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—"built upon the foundation of . . . apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20).
We testify that He will someday return to earth. "And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together" (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.
We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.
Logic is not their strong point when it comes to the scriptures.
But they are a loyal lot to *TOM, even if they are wrong!
*Tradition of men=TOM
What faith are you it seems you are not of the Trinity trend!:)
So do you believe in the Hebrew teachings of Elohim? If not where is your disagreement?
The earlier comment was Elohim was the OT name of the Father; YHWH was the OT name of Jesus...this is not true.
First of all, Ham was not black. His wife, Egyptus, was. Her very name means “that which is forbidden”. However, she was righteous as were many of her posterity. The curse that came upon Cain was that he would not enter into the presence of the Lord, the same curse that the Lord swore in His wrath to the children of Israel as a nation, though there were individuals like Moses and Joshua who entered into the order of the Melchizedek priesthood, which is necessary to enter into the actual presence of the Lord. The Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys to the ministering of angels and deals with the outward ordinances of the Gospel and of the Lord’s House and the Melchizedek (or higher priesthood)holds the keys to the ministering of the Father and the Son and deals with the binding covenants of eternity such as was excercised by Elijah and the sealing covenants. The dark skin was not a curse but a mark that was given to Cain and his seed so as to separate them from their bretheren and “protect” them from unrighteous retribution. The Lord applied the mark at the request of Cain who was fearful for his life and was given the promise that any who sought to take away his life would be dealt with sevenfold.
Christian. Non-denominational.
Try to avoid labels but I’m definitely a born again spirit filled type. In my way if thinking, is there any other kind?
Regarding the trinity, if I am wrong I am guilty of wrongly dividing the word.
If the trinitarians are wrong they are guilt of idolatry.d
It is a risk I’m willing to take!
what is spooky is that those TOM have a spiritual origin, and it ain’t clean.
So from your knowledge of Hebrew, tell me what the definition of the word Elohim is. Please be as comprehensive as you can. The word has a literal meaning. It does not mean “God”.
Why? I spent many electrons explaining how it was a declarative statement showing that he, Jesus Christ the Son of God, was at that point in time, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Sounds like another anti-mormon fairy tale. Why would we have a church named after other than deity? You are just being silly and you know it.
If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).
One of the more common misrepresentations spread by anti-Mormons is that Latter-day Saints do not believe in the virgin birth (i.e., that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born). Let's begin by clearly stating the official doctrine of the Church, as contained in the Book of Mormon:
"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." (Alma 7:10, emphasis added)
As we can see, the virgin birth is an official doctrine of the Church. Occasionally, the critics produce statements from LDS literature like the following:
"God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says." (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.742)
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (President Brigham Young on April 9, 1852. The Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50)
The critics would offer these types of statements as evidence that Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was born. They falsely say that descriptive terms like "normal and natural course of events" must mean normal sexual relations as we understand them. While this might be a possible interpretation if no other information existed on this subject, the critics conveniently ignore all other information that proves their interpretation of these types of statements to be incorrect, such as:
"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. Mary, his mother, "was carried away in the Spirit" (1 Ne. 11:13-21), was "overshadowed" by the Holy Ghost, and the conception which took place "by the power of the Holy Ghost" resulted in the bringing forth of the literal and personal Son of God the Father. (Alma 7:10; 2 Ne. 17:14; Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38.) Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 18-20.) Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false. (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.822, emphasis added)
"He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth. (See 1 Nephi 11:20.)" ("Joy in Christ," Ensign 16 [March 1986]: 3-4., emphasis added) (See President Benson's Teachings About Christ)
It is worth noting that many of these clarifying statements appear in the exact same literature as the other statements quoted above. Therefore, the critics were aware of them and purposely chose to ignore them. I will leave it to the reader's judgment as to why our enemies might do such a thing.
Since it is clear that Latter-day Saints believe in the virgin birth, then how do we interpret the statements that might imply otherwise [implied only if nothing else were known]? The key to understanding lies in the differences between Trinitarian theology and LDS doctrine. Unlike Trinitarians, who believe that the Father and Son are of one essence, Latter-day Saints believe that the members of the Godhead are separate personages united in purpose, power, and glory. This is a key theological difference between us and the Trinitarians.
Since the Holy Ghost is a separate personage from God the Father, it is important to point out that Jesus is the only begotten son of God the Father and not the son of the Holy Ghost. We should make it clear that when Church leaders state that Jesus is not the son of the Holy Ghost, they are not saying that the power of the Holy Ghost was not used in the conception process. They are simply saying that the Holy Ghost personage is not the father of Jesus.
The fact that Jesus Christ is begotten of the Father is abundantly testified to by scripture: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16). When Jesus was baptized, God the Father spoke from heaven and said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17) If one cannot believe God, then whom can one believe? President Ezra Taft Benson taught:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father." (Come unto Christ, p. 4.)
If Jesus is truly the Son of God the Father, then what part did the Holy Ghost play in his miraculous conception? The Father used the power of the Holy Ghost as an agent, or enabler, so that a virgin could give birth to his Son. The specifics are beyond our knowledge and possibly our comprehension.
Therefore, the statements from Church leaders indicating that Jesus was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events should be understood that God works through natural means in everything that he does. At times, his works like the Virgin Birth may seem to defy natural laws as man knows them. In those cases, we should understand that "[our Heavenly Father beget Jesus of a virgin] not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof" (Elder James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 81).
For example, President Joseph Fielding Smith taught:
"A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us." (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 484- TLDP:649, emphasis added)
Elder James E. Talmage taught:
Miracles cannot be in contravention of natural law, but are wrought through the operation of laws not universally or commonly recognized. Gravitation is everywhere operative, but the local and special application of other agencies may appear to nullify it -- as by muscular effort or mechanical impulse a stone is lifted from the ground, poised aloft, or sent hurtling through space. At every stage of the process, however, gravity is in full play, though its effect is modified by that of other and locally superior energy. The human sense of the miraculous wanes as comprehension of the operative process increases. (Jesus the Christ, Ch.11, p.148, emphasis added)
In other words, while we may not understand how a virgin can conceive a child, the virgin birth did occur and it was a natural event, not an unnatural one.
Rev. 20: 12-13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
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