No, I'm Not Offended [R. Albert Mohler, Jr./Southern Baptist Theological Seminary]

The Christian Post ^ | Jul. 13 2007 | R. Albert Mohler, Jr

[Revelation 911]

nice article - nail it to the door

[Claud]

Well, you’re right...if those Popes were saints...if WE were saints...then maybe we wouldn’t have gotten ourselves into this mess in the first place.

I find it thoroughly consistent to be a) critical of the Catholic hierarchy of that era for letting it get so bad, and b) critical of the Reformers for applying exactly the wrong medicine to fix it.

What was really needed was more along the lines of the Counter Reformation, which came a bit too late.

[Greg F]

We are the saints!

: )

And from what little I know, I agree, too little, too late to avoid the schism.

[livius]

Thank you! The first intelligent reply I have heard in all this.

One thing that is different, aside from the intellectual level of the writer, is that he was responding to what was actually in the document, and not to the headlines that the press put out attempting to cause hysteria (and succeeding, alas).

[Suzy Quzy]

I think of it humorously when a Protestant says we Catholics aren't Christian!!! It's so absurd, it's laughable.....and then it's kind of sad that people can say that with a straight face.

It's like Reformed Jews saying Orthodox Jews aren't really JEWISH!! And I have heard that also!

[Alex Murphy]

I think of it humorously when a Protestant says we Catholics aren't Christian!!! It's so absurd, it's laughable.....and then it's kind of sad that people can say that with a straight face.

I do a lot of laughing myself, you know...

The man who dared to laugh at the Pope
"I am utterly convinced that the most insulting thing one can do at an episcopal tribunal, is to bust out laughing when the inquisitor reads the charges against them...."
Consumer Reports: What Religion is the Best Religion?
"As Christians, we should learn to laugh more...."

[BibChr]

Of course, I am convinced that he is not right – not right on the papacy, not right on the sacraments, not right on the priesthood, not right on the Gospel, not right on the church.

But, otherwise....

[redgolum]

The official LCMS response is “So what, this is nothing new.”

Guys, this isn’t new. Many have been pretending at ecumenical meetings that all of Christendom is one group hug away from reunion, but those of the more conservative bent know it is all a PR stunt.

BXVI is basically stating that, which is IMHO a good thing. Maybe some of the gross stupidity of the past decades can be forgotten.

[redgolum]

One thing that is different, aside from the intellectual level of the writer, is that he was responding to what was actually in the document, and not to the headlines that the press put out attempting to cause hysteria (and succeeding, alas).

Well yeah, but having a green beanie weenie fit is a lot more fun.

[Saundra Duffy]

Why are they offended by Mormons, then? These people with open minds and hearts.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

No one is offended by Mormons. We just completely disagree with them. Like Mohler said, it is not an emotional issue.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

There is one particular religious group that offends me. It is those weasily dodgers known as the Emergent Church. They offend me because they are not straight talkers. It’s insulting to all intelligence.

[Saundra Duffy]

“No one is offended by Mormons.”

Oh, my Goodness, I wish that were true.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Don't confuse disagreement with being offended. Maybe you are offended that some think Mormonism is a cult. Would you rather they lie? Don't you want Mormons to have the right to stand up for what they believe against people who disagree?

Two things are offensive. First, the pressure to disregard core beliefs in exchange for some kind of emotional unity as though we merely think each other into heaven or hell. Second, the shifty dishonesty of some who are merely trying to tear down true belief, hiding behind a phony faith that changes form about every other minute (the Emergents).

[armydoc]

Excellent article, on the whole. However, I can't reconcile these two statements:

Lest anyone miss the point, the document then goes on to acknowledge that the churches of Eastern Orthodoxy also stake a claim to apostolic succession, and thus they are referred to as "Churches" by the Vatican.

The true church, in other words, is that church identified through the recognition of the papacy. Those churches that deny or fail to recognize the papacy are "ecclesial Communities," not churches "in the proper sense."

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

fyi, I guess weasily isn’t a word. I mean they are weasels. But hey, why not make up a word about them and just define it myself (sly, dishonest, sneaky, deceptive, misleading, shifty..). They make up words all the time. When they don’t do that they just take existing words and redefine them. I hate that deceptive practice.

[GCC Catholic]

I can't reconcile these two statements:

That's because Mohler was just a tad off on the second one. The document (which you should read if you haven't) states that the "ecclesial Communities" are not churches "in the proper sense" because they lack a claim to apostolic succession and thus a valid sacramental life.

[gbmtmas]

As an Orthodox Christian, I do not find the CDF’s pronouncement to be offensive at all. It is consistent with the CDF’s earlier “Dominus Iesus,” which pretty much reflects the teaching of Vatican II. I see the Russian Orthdox Church’s reaction to the document as far more sensible than that of the Romanian Orthodox Patriarch (whom I’m not even sure read the document).

Certainly, the Roman Catholic Church’s view of the Eastern Orthodox Church is generally more charitable than the Orthodox view of the Roman Catholics. The Roman Catholic Church at least calls Orthodoxy “a true church” with real sacraments and a real priesthood, and real apostolic succession. OTOH, the Orthodox view of Roman Catholicism has not always been as consistent or positive. There are opinions within Orthodoxy that view Roman Catholicism as not having any validity as a church or with any real Holy Mysteries. There are also opinions within Orthodoxy that view the Roman Catholics in a way that is analogous to the way the Roman Catholic Church views Orthodoxy. So, from an Orthodox POV, I take no offence whatsoever.

I find it remarkable that certain Protestants and Evangelicals would be offended. Rome’s position is not different than it was 40 years ago. If anything, it’s friendlier towards Protestantism and Evangelicalism now than it was before Vatican II. At least the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges elements of truth and sanctity within those communities. The main issue is regarding the name “church.” However, given the notion that a bishop with the presbytery, the diaconate and laity, celebrating a true Eucharist at the altar is essential for the church, it should be no small wonder that the name “church” is not applied by the Roman Catholic Church to the Protestants and also the Evangelicals. The Reformation fundamentally disagreed with Rome on the nature of the priesthood and the sacrifice of the Mass and the change of the bread and wine. The Reformers called the Catholic Mass an “abomination” and “idolatry” (Jack Chick still does!), and the Roman Catholics, in turn, denied that the Protestants had a true Eucharist and priesthood. With this in mind, I am struggling to understand why anyone would be in an uproar over the Roman Catholic Church expressing a view fairly consistent with its historical teaching—albeit now with more positive reckognition of good within Protestantism and the newer Evangelicals, which came from Protestantism.

Certainly Rome’s view towards especially Evangelicalism is, in generally, far more charitable than Evangelicalism’s view towards Rome. I have had many discussions with Fundies and heard their strong denunciations of “Romanism” and “Popery” and affirm confidently that Roman Catholics are hellbound. Jack Chick is not a minority within Evangelicalism WRT how Roman Catholics (and probably by similarity—Eastern Orthodox) are viewed.

Thus, I find any offence at the CDF’s pronouncement to be somewhat irrational.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

It's a position that lets us finally start talking intelligently, instead of trying to appease each other with meaningless theological mush.

Cool! Let's go knock each other's heads off, or burn each other at the stake (joke, yes, really).

At least we should all fight over important things. Maybe the "eccumenapause" disgrace of the modern church is finally passing...it will not be missed.

[GCC Catholic]

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