The churches that aren't ["what is the point of religious dialogue with the Vatican?"]

Interesting.

It’s called the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you can pick up at the bookstore. However, if you’re looking for authentic line by line Catholic commentary, I’d recommend Conelius Lapide. It’s unfortunately in Latin, about 40 volumes, I believe and exhaustive. It is a most widely used reference by biblical scholars.

The common catholic won’t give a definitive interpretation to most Bible questions? Why? Because he understands the depth of theologicial knowledge necessary to correctly interpret the bible isn’t generally within his reach in a 5 minute debate with a protestant. Unlike a protestant who equipped with the KJV believes he is the repository of theological training equivalent to 2000 years of Catholic scholarship. Bring it on!

Thanks for the Roman Catholic ping.
The message between yours and mine is a good one!

To Alex and Other Protestant Christians with Charity

he Catholic Church’s understanding of the Church (i.e. its ecclesiology) is linked to its Theology about God. The Holy Trinity tells us about the nature of God, which is God is a God of perfect communion and love and relationship. The Father eternally generates the Son and the Son returns of the love of the Father and the bond of love is the Holy Spirit. The second person of the Trinity, Christ, became incarnate (i.e. Christ has a fully human and divine nature) and founded a Church (Mt 16) which St. Paul describes as the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim 3: 15). The Church is described by St. Paul as the body of Christ (1 Cor 12: 12-14), the Bride of Christ (Eph 5: 26-27) and by St. Peter as the People of God (1 Pet 2: 9-10). Since Christ has one Body, and One Bride, and one people, and since God is a God of perfect communion (Holy Trinity), the Church then is also one.

Hence, the Catholic Church’s doctrine of the Church is tied to its theology of God, and Christ and the Church is “Christ’s” instrument for salvation for all people.

The Churches faith comes from Christ, to the Apostles, down to us today via Apostolic succession. Thus, from the Catholic perspective, to be Church proper, requires Apostolic Succession, which leads to valid Holy Orders (Bishops, etc) an thus a valid Holy Eucharist. As St. Ignatius (107 AD) indicated “where there is the Eucharist there is Christ” and hence the Church. In addition, the Catholic Church sees that Christ appointed St. Peter with a special role in the early Church (Mt 16), which is also indicated in two other Petrine texts found in St. Luke and St. John’s Gospel, where Christ tells St. Peter that he prayed especially for him, and for St. Peter to strengthen his brothers, respectively. As a result, the Church of Rome and its Bishop has a Primacy among the Churches.

History supports this claim. For example, St. Clement of Rome, 3rd successor from St. Peter, wrote a letter to the Church in Corinth in circa 90 AD to address a schism that had occurred in that Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch, in around 107 AD wrote of the Church of Rome indicating that it “Presides in Love” among the Churches. In 144 AD, the first named Gnostic Heretic, Marcion, came from the Eastern Roman empire to Rome and stated that the Church should not use the Old Testament, and adopt only St. Luke’s Gospel and certain epistles of St. Paul. When he was told that this not part of the Apostolic Tradition, Marcion hardened his position and he eventually would be excommunicated by the Church of Rome in 144 AD when St. Pius I was Bishop of Rome. St. Irenaeus of Lyon, in 170AD, wrote against the Gnostic heretics and stated that because the Church of Rome can trace its origins back to St.’s Peter and Paul,, that it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority.

The Catholic Church recognizes that the Eastern Orthodox have Apostolic Succession and thus valid Bishops and Eucharist, as well as the other Sacraments, and thus are proper Churches. The Orthodox Churches welcomed the document as they see themselves in representing exactly what the Catholic Church sees regarding the Church (see EWTN or ZENIT.org for Russian Orthodox response to CDF statement). For the record, they view the Protestant Christian Communities the same way as the Catholic Church. With respect to the Protestant traditions, because they have not maintained proper ecclesial structures, which means no Apostolic succession, and thus no valid Holy Eucharist hence not a Proper Church in the sense of the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

However, what the document did NOT say that Protestants are not Christian. From the Catholic perspective, what makes one a Christian is Baptism in the Holy Trinity and belief in Christ’s divinity and his paschal mystery (passion, death and resurrection). In addition, the Catholic Church states that elements of sanctification (and Catholic doctrine would recognize two valid Sacraments, Baptism and Marriage in the Protestant Traditions) and Grace are present in the Protestant Communities that salvation does happen outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Communion.

Still, the Catholic Church professes what is indicated in both the Apostles and Nicene Creed that the Church is one, because God is One.

Pax Domine

I agree with gemma. I can think of different categories of people (homosexuals for one) who want their behavior constantly validated. If a person is happy and confident they are doing the right thing they won’t care what anyone else says or thinks.

We’ve set some kind of a record for the most Catholic hating threads in 48 hours.

i wonder with the protestant reactionaries posting the flurry of articles on this topic whether they fear the Pope and the Catholic church or whether they fear the Pope is 100% right and their ‘faith’ is a sham.

Would explain the volume of the flurry.

"We’ve set some kind of a record for the most Catholic hating threads in 48 hours."

Thank liberalism and political correctness for that. This last generation has grown up in an era where the Catholic Church herself has fallen prey to PC. The Church has thus changed her teachings to make everyone 'happy', and has even Protestantized the Mass to make it appear less, well, Catholic. This new Pope is much more of a traditionalist than I thought. He is bringing back Catholic conservatism and traditionalism and, like Jesus Christ Himself, he doesn't care what people think. If the Pope didn't believe that the Catholic Church were the one true Church, then why would he even be a Catholic? What the hateful and/or ignorant Protestants don't understand is that the Pope isn't condemning them, he's opening up the doors of Truth to them, which is contained in the Catholic Church. He is actually reaching out and saying: "Jump off that uncertain ship you're on and come aboard, we are the ship of salvation, the Church founded by Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ on Peter 2,000 years ago". If they take it the wrong way and respond with hatred and ridicule that's their problem. Jesus taught the Truth, but He forced no one to follow Him. Many walked away from Him, laughed at Him, reviled Him. So be it.

Anyway, I don't think the Pope's latest statement is the primary reason why so many non-Catholics are spitting venom at the Pope lately, they already had that hatred for the Catholic Church seething and boiling in their hearts, just waiting for an excuse to let it out.

viva il Papa

"In addition, the Catholic Church states that elements of sanctification (and Catholic doctrine would recognize two valid Sacraments, Baptism and Marriage in the Protestant Traditions) and Grace are present in the Protestant Communities that salvation does happen outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Communion."

Good Lord, does that statement sound like its steeped in post Vatican II steam and wrapped in a blanket of the 'Spriit of Vatican II' or what? Based on your name, (CTrent), I would have expected something a little more traditional than that new-age garbledygoop I just read. You seem to be trying to muddle the Truth which Pope Benedict XVI has recently purified the air with. The fact is, the Catholic Church is the Ordinary means of Salvation and those who reject her are on a sinking ship, regardless of the teachings and revisions since Vat II.

"Elements of grace and salvation"??? What exactly does that mean to the final destiny of the human soul? Baptism remits Original Sin, in Protestants as well as Catholics, but what about the litany of sins committed since baptism? If you're dying of thirst in the desert, do want somebody to pass by with "elements of a map", or do you want the whole map? I believe that Pope Benedict VXI was trying to tell Protestants that his Church not only has the whole map, but is the map. I pray now that silly sounding, watered-down apologies from the Catholic heirarchy and laity regarding our beliefs on salvation will no longer be necessary, and that Pope Benedict will lead the Church back to courage, conviction and steadfast faith.

Gemma0000:

I tried, off the cuff, without the exact text of the document in front of me to articulate the essence of the document. If there is something in there that is not quite in order, then I will humbly stand corrected. My intent was to convey the essence of what is taught. I chose CTrent1564 as a tag, not be provocative and I am not a Sedevacantist or member of the SSPX. In other words, I have no problem with Vat II and as Pope Benedict stated it must be interpreted with a “hermaneutic of continuity” with Vat I and Trent.

Perhaps choosing Trent as a tag name, people will immediatialy read into that name what they want to read (I have already had this discussion with a Dr. Ecklburg fellow on another forum) rather than letting Trent be intepreted in light of Vat I and Vat II the way it is communicated now through Pope Benedict. So again, what I stated about “elements of sanctification” being found in the Protestant Traditions is taught in the recent Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, perhaps my rendering of that teaching was not up to par.

Respectively submitted

Welcome to FR gemma. = D