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To: Claud; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; BibChr

I did not mention presence.

I mentioned those things that have not got one whit, one iota of biblical backing....assumption, immaculate conception, and coredemption of Mary.

They are made-up-by-man additions....no different than Joseph Mormon Smith making up golden plates in New York state.


97 posted on 07/11/2007 6:18:32 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; jude24
I mentioned those things that have not got one whit, one iota of biblical backing....assumption, immaculate conception, and coredemption of Mary.

I understand, but those things are not the reasons Catholicism does not recognize Prot. denominations as Churches. The Orthodox don't exactly like our formulation of those ideas either (BTW 3 is still very up for debate and I particularly don't like it very much), and yet they are considered proper Churches.

Where the rubber meets the road is, as jude24 very astutely said above, sacramental theology. Catholics believe that the sacraments were instituted by Christ to dispense grace among the faithful. The Church is where the sacraments are. Where they do not exist in their true fulness, there cannot be the Church.

When you good folks hear us say that though, (and please correct me if I am mistaken), you hear that phrase as a total denial that you are Christian at all. Because you view the Church as an invisible institution solely of those who have believed in Christ.

It is very important for non-Catholics to view this document in terms of *our own* ecclesiology, and not any one else's. We go by the sacraments, not just a sinner's prayer. And note well that we recognize one of your sacraments (Baptism) as valid...so we are forced to recognize that there is some element of the Church among you, even if the other sacraments are not.

125 posted on 07/11/2007 7:18:56 AM PDT by Claud
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To: xzins
those things that have not got one whit, one iota of biblical backing

Sola scriptura is not to be found in the Bible either. Do you similarly discount it?

170 posted on 07/11/2007 10:24:15 AM PDT by jddqr
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