Posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 PM PDT by indcons
Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.
Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism.
Roman Catholic- Anglican relations are already strained over the Church of England's plans to ordain homosexuals and women as bishops. The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.
It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.
As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.
The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ".
Pope Benedict's commitment to the hardline teaching comes days after he reinstated the Mass in Latin, which was sidelined in the 1960s in an attempt to modernise.
The timing of the announcement fuelled speculation that the pontiff - regarded as an arch-conservative before his election in 2005 - is finally beginning to impose his views on the Catholic Church.
The Vatican said it was restating the position set out by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 in a document called Domine Jesus because theologians continued to misunderstand it.
At that time, Anglican leaders from around the world made their anger felt by snubbing an invitation to join Pope John Paul II as he proclaimed St Thomas More the patron saint of politicians.
Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.
He said the pronouncement repeated the "offensive statements" of the 2000 document and was a "missed opportunity" to patch up relations with Protestants.
One more time. James, cousin of Jesus, son of Zebedee, Pastor of the Jerusalem Church was martyred by Herod around 42 A.D. (Herod dies in 44 A.D.)(Acts 12:2,23). 14 years after his first visit, after completing his first missionary tour and spending time at his home church in Antioch Paul goes up to the meeting at the Jerusalem Church over the evangelizing of Gentiles, around 52 A.D. and James the Lord’s brother, is the Pastor and leads the meeting (Acts 15). he writes the letter to the Galatians sometime after the meeting around 54 A.D. some 10 to 12 years after James, the Lord’s brother had been appointed Pastor of the mother church at Jerusalem. The letter was written to elaborate on the former letter to the Gentile churches resulting from the Jerusalem meeting. The church knew who Peter was since he had disgraced himself in their presence and they knew James was the Pastor of the mother church, and both at the time of the writing of the letter were apostles and Paul was using his association with them to establish his own credentials with the Gentile church. He was not commenting on the history of the Apostles or their succession; just identifying the prominent people involved in the dispute.
There is no evidence in the Gospels that Jesus selected His brother to be an Apostle, the two James are already accounted for, and Matthias was appointed to fill the ranks of the twelve when Judas Iscariot was eliminated, so someone had to fill the place as the Pastor and Apostle for James, who was martyred.
Scripture is inerrant and God breathed, every word, but it is not now and will never be the sole source of Christian faith. Sola scriptura is a tradition of man, not of Christ. Islams understanding of the trinity is defective so of course they view it as polytheism, but that does not detract from the fact that they claim to be monotheists.
I would also point out that were it not for the Church which is the pillar and ground of truth, guided by the Holy Spirit, we would probably hold an understanding of Christ and the nature of God that wold be closet to what the Muslims believe that what orthodox Christianity understands.
Conservonator,
I really do not care to ‘argue’ with you, but I do seek to place things in the context of truth.
On the one hand, you want to be able to affirm that Islam has ‘an element of truth’, which it certainly does. Yet with the same breath you want to deny anything it says as ‘rot’. If it contains truth, how do we judge what is true in it?
For me the answer would be scripture. Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in rightiousness (2 Tim 3:16). I would also affirm fully that I am a person of the book.
The book itself is just a book, but what lies within it are the words of God passed on to men to make us ‘wise for salvation’ (2 Tim 3:15). Christ is the Word (John 1), and if we are his disciple, then we are in the Word.
You seem to be confusing the concept of wisdom from God and the wisdom of the world, by claiming that the wisdom of God lies in Christian tradition, Merely because a Christian (or an ordained Christian) speaks, does not make their words the wisdom of God. We are called upon to test all spirits, and even those who ‘prophesy in your (Christ’s) name, and in your name drive out demons and perform miracles” (Mat 7:22) may be told that they never were known to Christ.
The point I was making about Islam’s claims of Christian polytheism lie in the nature of lies.... a truth that has been distorted is no longer truth.
In regards to your comment on the Church, I would both agree and disagree. The Church is the body of all those who follow Christ. In this context it is absolutely true that without the body of Christ, men would slide into error.
If however, you mean the institution of the Church, I would strongly disagree. God is capable of raising up children for Abraham ‘out of these stones’ (Mt 3:9). He chooses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chooses the weak things of the world to shame the strong (1 Cor:27). He set his Messiah within a poor backward region, with ‘no beauty or majesty to attract us to him’ (Is 53:2).
To God alone belongs the glory and praise. The Church without God can do nothing, and with God even the lowliest man can do wonders. The honour does not belong to the man though, but to the great God to whom he is a servant. If this ‘Church’ fails to stay true to God’s way, then God can raise up from among these stones children of the promise.
“Since you didn’t answer the other questions I will assume that you agreed with my replies.”
No, that is not the case. I simply have a busy life and don’t always have time to parse things out for a reply.
Bravo
The Pope never said anything about WHO is a “proper Christian.” He said that Protestant churches don’t have a sacramental priesthood (which, in the Catholic view, is an essential characteristic of Christ’s church. Protestants are offended??? I thought the ABSENCE of a sacramental, sacrificing priesthood was the GLORY of the Protestant churches—their main selling point!
I’ve reported you for abuse: anti-Catholic bigotry and slander. You can’t produce a scintilla of evidence that the Pope lives in “luxury.” He works hard, and his every minute is scheduled, from morning to night. Some “luxury.”
Where is the theory that ALL revealed truth is in Scripture supported by Scripture?
Thanks for your measured response. Work demands have prevented me from responding. I’ll get back with you as soon as I can. Thanks
Col 1:24: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
Can you please explain how Col 1:24 is describing any unbeliever, much less Muslims? If you note in vs 1:2, Paul indicates very clearly that he is talking to believers. So does James. It would not seem at all that this is talking about Muslims. A religion that is not just false but one that believes that they must kill both the Jews and the Christians, that they must take over the world for their god.
So, is there any other scripture that backs up your statement of "The concept of God giving an individual or even a whole nation an opportunity to participate in His plan is recorded in Scripture time and time again. "
If it says that time and time again, surely you have a more solid reference than the one you just cited. Remember, we are talking about those gentiles outside the fold of God, the unbelievers, which Muslims are very much outside. Where are those records?
Again, how can a so-called leader of Christianity be respected or believed when he acknowledges, by a kiss, the koran and who says that these same pagans as a group of gentiles are favored by God. a group that has declared war on God's people? How? So far, you have not provided any evidence that suggest that he should be believed as a leader of a faith when he does and says such things.
“Thanks for your measured response. Work demands have prevented me from responding. I’ll get back with you as soon as I can. Thanks”
I recognize your sarcasm. But I represent $100 million worth of properties currently in play, while you represent diddly, so your sarcasm means diddly/squat.
Argue all you want, but arguments derived from a flawed concept of Scripture based on the distinctly unchristian tradition of sola scriptura hold little sway with me. You see, your interpretation of Scripture is filtered through your biases, goals, past, health, the weather and every other factor that can effect the subconscious mind or man. This is why we have a phone book full of "Bible Believing" churches: each man a pope of his own interior church. The truth is this: Scripture is the story of God's love for man and His plan of salvation. The Church was given to us that we may know the gospel to be true and to help us, like the Ethiopian eunuch, understand.
when you, like every other protestant turn your back on the Church that Christ created for His people, you are in a sense turning you back on Him, in effect saying: "thanks, but I prefer to do things my own way". Luckily for all of us, God is Love and His name is Mercy.
His Church will never fail, it is the pillar and ground of truth, against which the gates of hell will not prevail, if you believe Scripture.
You can't possibly need scripture quotes to know that God gives us, some times individually, sometimes collectively an opportunity to participate actively in his plan of salvation: it's pretty much the whole book, from Genesis to Revelation. Participation is not necessarily a ticket to salvation-ville, The Pharaoh comes to mind.
You have to keep in mind, Scripture is not a random collection of verses and books, it is a coherent inerrant love story, and to be best understood, it should be considered as a whole and not as a verse.
My statement was not sarcastic. I'm very busy at work right now and it sounds like you are also. What makes you think my work is so insignificant?
Fortunately for those of us who are Christians, the only witness to our Christianity that is necessary is Christ, Himself. The only One He will witness to, is the one and only Father God.
Unfortunately, we Christians have a long history of dividing ourselves. Read Acts, Romans, Galations, Corinthians, etc. Our job is to try to be one with one another, so that the world will see that we are one with Him and that He is One with the Father. None of us is perfect, yet.
God bless you for giving me the opportunity to witness.
You are welcome.
My intent too, is to end this petty squabbling among ourselves. We may not agree on religion but I think we can come together in politics and put aside our religious differences to work for the common good.
Same ole... when you can't show your foundation biblically, then attack the person and the whoever else you decide to group in with them so you can throw more darts. The stuff you just said has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
So that leaves anyone reading this to see that there is no biblical or Godly reason that anyone should think much of a so-called Christian leader who blesses the Koran by kissing it and by saying that Muslims have an advantage in coming to faith.
I think the very fact that we have spent so much time discussing the Muslims speaks to the fact that God has a particular plan for them. But your right, there is no mention of Muslims in Scripture, or Americans, or Calvinists or Lutherans or Germans or you or me... no reason at all to believe that God has a plan for any of these people I suppose.
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