Posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 PM PDT by indcons
Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.
Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism.
Roman Catholic- Anglican relations are already strained over the Church of England's plans to ordain homosexuals and women as bishops. The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.
It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.
As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.
The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ".
Pope Benedict's commitment to the hardline teaching comes days after he reinstated the Mass in Latin, which was sidelined in the 1960s in an attempt to modernise.
The timing of the announcement fuelled speculation that the pontiff - regarded as an arch-conservative before his election in 2005 - is finally beginning to impose his views on the Catholic Church.
The Vatican said it was restating the position set out by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 in a document called Domine Jesus because theologians continued to misunderstand it.
At that time, Anglican leaders from around the world made their anger felt by snubbing an invitation to join Pope John Paul II as he proclaimed St Thomas More the patron saint of politicians.
Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.
He said the pronouncement repeated the "offensive statements" of the 2000 document and was a "missed opportunity" to patch up relations with Protestants.
What church was he the absolute ruler over? Or would he be better described as an evangelist?
BTW, do we have any examples of supernatural powers that he was blessed with suddenly?
Paul showed his disdain of the Apostles that Jesus chose and taught for 3 years - throughout his writings. He considered himself superior and not in need of conferring with them on anything - until, years after becoming an 'Apostle" - he was in hot water over things he was teaching and instituting that was in conflict with the church...and because he had not been following the admonition of taking care of the poor.
His arrogance is laid out against him better in his own hand than anyone else's.
he writes, in Galatians, for example, that after he 'saw the Light' and was made an Apostle on the road to Damascus, : "Immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood [the leaders of the church in Jerusalem, the men that Jesus hand picked and spent years teaching],
Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were Apostles before me; I went to Arabia, [for some 11 years] and returned to Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem...
He writes, in Corinthians that "in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles"
He had great disdain for the Apostles - and they did not get along - he saw no need for himself to get advice or insight about the teachings given them over the years by Jesus. His writing in Corinthians and Galatians alone are a study in self=importance and superiority over the leaders of the church - read for yourself, with open eyes.
Now considering that for the first ten years after the Crucifixion, Paul - as Saul, the Roman Commander, hunted down and slaughtered every Christian he could find - and ordered the stoning of the Apostle Steven -= and then spent more than a dozen more years after he says he became an Apostle before he deigned to go to Jerusalem and even talk with the leaders of the church - I have to ask myself, why do so many of the churches lean so heavily on what Paul taught over Jesus, James, Peter and John, for example?
Not 300, the symbolism in post 151.
I was included in that post from blue-duncan - and I was totally unable to make heads of tail of it also
Christ used parables all the time, was he lying? The Ark is a fable.
So do the Jews believe in the same God that you do?
When Christ used parables he introduced them as parables. He referred to the ark as a historical event. He compared it to his second coming, which is also a literal event. If the ark was a fable, then his second coming is a fable.
(2 Peter 1:16 KJV) For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
The Ark is a fable.
Then Jesus was a fraud.
Good advice : ) Maybe you should follow it too.
How do you come to this understanding?”
It gives us warm fuzzies all over.
It has a couple of different meanings. The most obvious is that they are all People of the Book and trace their spiritual lineage through Abraham. The Jews through Issac and Arabs through Ishmael. I think it is good to know the true belief's of our Muslim enemies.
The second level is that it is directed against the Mormon baiter's who claim that Mormons aren't Christians. I then use it to ask them to define God and Christ in the context of Abraham's beliefs. It is very difficult to do that and attack Mormons as not being Christian at the same time.
The third level is to point out that everyone worships a different God based on their own personal experience and understanding. Labels fail in the end.
I did too : ) So I spent about an hour trying to collect all the names of everyone on the other forums and guided them all here.
and this has to do with this thread - or me - HOW?
But, since you seem to be implying that I must be a potato picking hick from Maine, (I can't decipher any other meaning,) let me give a brief story:
"As a little girl, long, long ago, I lived with my grandparents on a farm deep in the north Maine woods. We used to get out of school in the fall to pick potatoes. What fun. We were 'out of school' in the sun, and our pockets jingled with money we earned.
I graduated some years later in a beautiful little Maine town on the coast - one where all the 'cultured' folk come to for vacations to get away from their wonderful "civilization".
Following graduation, I left Maine and, in the ensuing years, lived all over this great country, from north to south, from coast to coast and in between. I had many memorable experiences, met many people whose names you would recognize, learned skills and had "careers."
I am a retired old granny now, (well, except for my writing,) living simply in the country, far away from the 'madding crowd' - and look forward to going up country in the fall to pick me some potatoes."
You are right - except Paul didn't believe he had to confer with anyone else - He states it many times, including from the get go of his mission, per Galatians 1: 15+
Well, the quote from Acts refers to the twelve apostles. Jesus Christ is the absolute ruler over His church. As incomplete as the record is, the NT makes it rather clear that Jesus Christ organized His church and meant it to remain after His ascension.
Of course, break offs from the Catholic church do have a bit of a problem in regard to upholding apostolic succession. :^)
“But, since you seem to be implying that I must be a potato picking hick from Maine”
It was not meant to imply anything, just an observation taken from your screen name. No harm meant and I apologize for disturbing you. We have very few New Englanders here.
Your slanted view of many of the great scientist was interesting. I like that you omitted the fact that Copernicus only published his book at the end of his life because he "feared ridicule and disfavor: by his peers and by the Church, which had elevated the ideas of Aristotle to the level of religious dogma."
I also thought that the omission of Giordano Bruno was very telling. Getting burned alive at the stake for espousing Copernicus's views was an interesting way for the the Church to support Copernicus's views ^_^
"There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages. -- Richard Lederer"
I believe that your trust is misplaced, not on God, but on the proposition that God has a plan for Muslims other than His plan of salvation by grace through faith that he offers to all men and women including Moslems. God's plan for unrepentant Muslims is the same as his plan for all unbelieving sinners who reject his gracious offer of forgiveness for sin on the condition of confessing faith on the Lord Jesus Christ and the blood atonement for sin that He made on the cross at Calvary with His own sinless blood.
Muslims may believe that they worship the same God as Jews and Christians do, but they are 180 degrees wrong. The very real spiritual entity known to Islam as Allah is either Satan himself or Satan's chosen demon, who he has appointed to deceive and empower the people who had worshiped him as their moon god for centuries before Mohammed was born.
OTOH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the same triune God who came to earth in the womb of the virgin Mary as the divine Son of the divine Father and was rejected as the prophesied Messiah by Jacob's progeny. He died on a Roman cross as the sacrificial lamb of God in place of both Jewish and gentile sinners who will accept him as their Lord and place their faith and trust solely ON Him and His blood atonement as propitiation for their sin.
Muslims do not acknowledge Jesus as divine, they see Him as just another prophet of the Hebrew God Jehovah. Jesus Christ IS God, and incomprehensibly to the human mind, the Son of God as well. In either divine Person of the Trinity, He is the diametric opposite of the infernal demon known to Islam as it's god Allah. He has the power to save and preserve His saints, and He will eventually return to earth to rule over His chosen nation Israel as Messiah, and over all the earth with a rod of iron as King and Lord of all that He created.
During that time Allah will be chained in the lake of fire, and his unrepentant deceived followers will be paying the eternal penalty for their sin of rejecting Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and instead choosing to believe the blatant lie which Satan promulgated through the agency of his willing servant Mohammed.
I will try and break it down so that I don't miss the point.
If Mormons claim to be the true faith and the book of Mormon predates Christ, then what the Mormons are actually saying (if they are indeed restoring a true church) is that everyone else is a failed Mormon.
Your attempt at logic doesn't make any sense. First "and the book of Mormon predates Christ" isn't an argument. Nor is the second part. I will simplify your statement ^_^
If the Mormon religion is true then none of the other religions are true. Would you consider that an accurate summation of what you were trying to say in such an obtuse fashion?
Isn't that what the Pope just said about the Catholic religion?
Hmm, I would say that obfuscation was your intent in the original post, Revelation 911.
What was telling was the omissions. Adding to my earlier reply to your posting it should be noted that Einsteins quote that "God does not play dice" was that fact the Einstein was proven wrong.
Every single quote that you posted was full of omissions like that.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
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