Posted on 07/10/2007 8:00:34 AM PDT by Bladerunnuh
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican said on Tuesday Christian denominations outside Roman Catholicism were not full churches of Jesus Christ.
Protestant leaders said this was offensive and would hurt inter-religious dialogue.
A 16-page document by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict once headed, described Christian Orthodox churches as true churches, but suffering from a "wound" since they do not recognize the primacy of Pope.
But the document said the "wound is still more profound" in Protestant denominations.
"Despite the fact that this teaching has created no little distress ... it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to them," it said.
The Vatican text, which restates the controversial document
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
Perhaps it’s the idea of a hierarchy that is the biggest turn-off for me. That I would bow or show reverence to anyone other than the Son of God and to God Himself is unreal to me, regardless of how they breakdown their worship structure.
Aside from that, I refuse to believe that God would have made such a fatalistic approach to the salvation of His creation.
Why should one man have to rely upon any other man to establish a relationship with God?
Similar to your argument, and similar in foundation.
So then you don't believe in the communion of saints espoused in the Apostle's Creed or do you simply see this communion as in this world?
A “saint” in this regard is likely being seen as a memeber of the faith, just as “catholic church” is simply the long hand for the church.
Please do note that it is lower cased. Also note this is (to my understanding) not used by most Protestant denomonations.
Why don't we ask Jesus? John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus said more than once that we are to be baptized and commanded His Apostles do so with His flock. What God will do with those who do not partake of the Sacrament of Baptism, I will leave to Him.
They have to have a direct-line connection to Jesus through touch?
Do you not consider it significant that after the fall of Judas, the Apostles got together to discern the Will of God regarding a replacement for his office (Acts 1:15-26)? Matthias was chosen. This is Apostolic succession. Whether through direct touch or otherwise is above my paygrade.
Let's go and ask God again... James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
Fair enough.
I did not deny the re-birth by water. So please don’t try to debate that.
I argue that a direct succession of Laying of Hands is not the way to Salvation.
It shouldn’t be “above your paygrade”
It should go straight from God’s Word (in your hand) to your heart and mind. That is the chief argument of Protestantism- God did not ask us to form intermediaries.
“I am the way.” Anybody?
The second. As I’ve been saying, we are saints, prophets and kings, through Christ. When I have fellow Christians praying for me, it is a communion of saints.
If I recall my Sunday School correctly- didn’t Luther have somethings to say about James? Weren’t what he had to say similar to words regarding the teachings of the Book of Thomas? Of the Apocrypha?
“Wherever one or more are gathered in His name, so shall thete be God(the Spirit).”
I just read an article a while back about worship in the Roman home and it talked about these things.
I’m enjoying this conversation but I really have get going. All I would say in response this time is that we are all called in different ways to serve the Church. Some are called to be Prophets, Apostles, or other roles as mentioned by St Paul. The mechanisms God employs to do His Will are not all open for review.
Jesus is the “way”, yes. However, as I pointed out, it isn’t just about asking Jesus into your heart. Jesus calls for a baptism of water and the Spirit as the beginning. If you believe in Jesus, you will do what He told us to do. Protestants are fond of pointing out that we can’t earn our way to Heaven. That is correct. It’s the same as the fact that the neighbor kid can’t make himself part of my family. I don’t delight in his work and it has no bearing on my relationship to him. I have to adopt him to be part of my family just as God rejoined us to Him in the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. Now, as sons and daughters, our works are pleasing to Him and He will reward us according to our works (Hebrews, James, Revelation). Works of the Law did not save us (circumcision et al), but Christ’s sacrifice as the atoning sacrifice of the New Covenant rejoined us to God’s Holy Family. We are called to service of God in our new creation and our work now has merit. Jesus merited for us the capacity to merit with the Father as sons and daughters.
That is the distinction missed in the discussion of Romans vs James. Romans is talking about Works of the Law (circumcision et al) and the fact that they don’t bring salvation. James is talking about works of mercy and charity and their bearing on our salvation. One is done from the outside looking in, the other from the inside looking out.
Therefore, we are to do what Christ told us (the Sacraments, et al). That is the measure of our faith. Not that we will say, “Jesus is Lord!” but that we will prove our faith in Him in our fealty to His Commandments.
Gotta run... I know you will want to flay this open too... won’t be able to play anymore. God bless you.
Have you ever read the Bible?
Lost pg, but we got a new toy!
Am I sick? I LIKE debating the “taboo”
“Do not debate religion or politics in polite society”
Kinda like telling a 10 year old to not get dirty.
I hope this remains near the top of your ping-pile.
-I agree.
100%
Just saying “Jesus is Lord” is as effective as trying to bribe your way into Heaven.
It is in one’s actions (in regards to the wisdom of the message) of their heart that one accepts God and lives accordingly.
God be with you.
-Mac
<<<”I don’t see one thing wrong with this. This false superiority Catholics feel pervades everything you say in your dealing with us Protestants”>>>
Then you are saying that ecumenism would never have worked? That the past 40 plus years have been wasted?
No. What's that?
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say either of those things.
<<<”I will admit, I am not an English major... but I am hard pressed to find where Paul claimed he went about setting up his own churches. As I said before, Christ said He will build His Church. There is no contradiction in the Pauline Epistles with this view.”>>>
If Paul did not set up Churches in the following then who did? These Epistles were sent to the supporters and believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. These believers formed the Churches in the following:
I Thessalonians.
II Thessalonians
Galatians
I Corinthians.
II Corinthians
Romans.
Colossians
Ephesians
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