Posted on 07/09/2007 11:01:19 AM PDT by AnthonyCekada
Whited sepulchres, whited sepulchres. The glory is departed. < wink >
As I see it, it is their own pride in their own holiness and their own understanding, and their own intelligence. Just as in a marriage that seems not to be salvagable, when you stay and work at it can become a holy union but if you give up and leave because you think you are always right it will end. SSPXers may not have divorced themselves from the Catholic Church but they certainly got a formal separation.
It's always been this way. The first and worst heresey came from Arius, a Bishop. Luther was an Augustinian Monk. The worst always comes from within, not from without.
Actually, it should be a source of comfort that the Universal Church still stands after being subjected to onslaught after onslaught - and that is in addition to its teaching and insisting upon the toughest moral doctrine, a doctrine that man naturally shrinks away from.
To me it is easy to see the supernatural characteristics of the Roman church. Then again, I pray every day. To those who would rather only naturalism they may see nothing in that Church except a pest to be exterminated.
Too bad for them.
I agree with you.
Our church liturgy would probably make his head explode. We at various times throughout the year mix Latin in with our NO mass. We sing Sanctus and Agnus Dei and so many other songs of prayer in Latin. I love it.
I love the NO Mass (we're going to have to get used to calling it "the ordinary usage" :o)) at my parish. The priests celebrate Mass by the book! The weekday Mass is especially intimate, and very simple. I was a member of the choir for a while, and I learned three Masses in Latin, and another Latin Mass in Gregorian Chant. I yearn for the new Missal (a new one is upcoming) with accurate vernacular translations from the Latin NO missal. I would love to see Latin restored to some major parts of the Mass, and also the practice of Communion in the hand discontinued.
I remember the extraordinary usage, and the changes during Vatican II. I was a little kid then, but I remember the majesty and power of especially the High Mass at my parish. I remember the awe, and the sense of the sacred. Furthermore, I think that even as a child I admired the dicipline of the rubrics.
I rejoice with the whole Church that our Holy Father has given us all the gift of his Motu Proprio. I rejoice that the Holy Spirit has guided him to this conclusion. I rejoice with my fellow Catholics who yearned for this restoration of the Mass of Blessed John XXIII to the wider usage of the Church. We all have suffered with the abuses born of liberalism, and now we have hope! As Jesus says,"Behold, I make all things new!"
Could I personally go back? I would love to attend an extraordinary usage Mass, because I want the opportunity to approach it, and appreciate it, as an adult. I also want to stay with the ordinary usage, because I think that its biggest draw lies, as I said before, in its intimacy and simplicity. In addition, in terms of participation, I cherish the role I have in making the responses to the priest.
I think the most important thing to remember is that both usages of the Latin rite worship God, one in pomp and majesty, and the other in simplicity. Both also have at its very essence the priest, acting in personna Christi, through whom God offers Himself to God for the many, and then distributes Himself as the Bread of Life.
Apparently, for right now, the Holy Spirit has let us know that God wants both styles of worship for the Latin Rite. I think Benedict XVI really hit the nail on the head that the extraordinary usage will be a sacred leaven to the ordinary usage. Let's follow our Pope and see what the Holy Spirit has for us in the future!
Here's a link that you may be interested in pursuing:
ADOREMUS: Society for the Renewal of the Sacred Liturgy
God bless you. :o)
Hey wagglebee!
Wow, what a link! Fighting for Terri is what actually got me to register at FR. What a miserable, unfortunate soul this man is!
Thanks for the background info.
Every time I see parts of the extraordinary usage on TV, and when I see it in person, I’m struck by the intensity and intentionality of the priests and altar boys humbly and reverently approaching the altar as the Levites would have in the days of the tabernacle in the tent.
I have absolutely no intention of being rude, but I’m so doggone happy to be a Catholic, and I just love Benedict XVI to pieces, that I absolutely can’t focus on what you’re saying.
Really!
I love Protestants so much, and have learned immensely from them, concerning how to daily live the Christian life. I owe quite a debt of gratitude.
Glad to have you aboard! :o)
I think I get the sense you mean.
Maybe I should call the Sedevacantists the Ultimate Protestants - or the Über-Protestants, or something.
You are a delight to have on this forum! V’s wife.
Bad pope, good pope, there is nothing in there that says to separate yourself from the Church because YOU believe the pope is wrong. You continue to worship God in the Church that He provided and work for the fidelity of the Church and the Popes. Plenty of saints who came before you did when they saw the Church and the pope heading in the wrong direction.
Jesus asked St. Francis of Assisi to rebuild His Church. How about reading up on St. Francis? I think he was before Vatican II.
Only in heaven will we begin to comprehend just how much God values each act of obedience. Without it, God can't work with a soul.
abandon, abandon hope, be hopeless, bum out, despond, destroy, drop, flatten, give way, lose faith, lose heart, lose hope, relinquish, renounce, resign, surrender, take down, yield
I think relinquishers fits pretty well but resigners, surrenderers or renouncers fit quite well too.
Of course nothing will prevail against Christ's Church, the question is rather who has LEFT the Church, of whatever rank, and in whatever numbers by formal heresy.
In the examples you mentioned, those who protested were the heretics, in this instance the heretics have usurped power and stayed, corrupted and befouled the Temple.
To be a Catholic one must be baptized and hold the Faith whole and entire. The heresiarchs who have bodly taken command since Vatican 2 are in no way, shape, or form Catholic. They have insitituted a completely new and false faith, and under the guise of all heretics, pretended that it is part of our sacred Patrimony when in reality it is of satan.
Bad pope, good pope, there is nothing in there that says to separate yourself from the Church because YOU believe the pope is wrong.
We are not speaking of a "good pope" or "bad pope", we are speaking of whether this man is Catholic, because if he is not, he is no pope at all.
As I quoted CATHOLIC teaching above, a heretical pope MUST be avoided.
"Cum ex Apostolatus Officio" Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV
"7. (ii) the laity;
shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs"
St Robert Bellarmine, "De Romano Pontifice", ("On the Roman Pontiff"), liber II, caput 30:
"For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed. The argument from authority is based on St. Paul (Titus, c. 3), who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate - which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence. And this is what St. Jerome writes, adding that the other sinners are excluded from the Church by sentence of excommunication, but the heretics exile themselves and separate themselves by their own act from the body of Christ. Now, a Pope who remains Pope cannot be avoided, for how could we be required to avoid our own head? How can we separate ourselves from a member united to us? This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.
Jus Canonicum by the Rev F X Wernz S.J. and the Rev P Vidal S.J. (1938) Chapter VII
"Indeed, a publicly heretical Pope, who, by the commandment of Christ and the Apostle must even be avoided because of the danger to the Church, must be deprived of his power as almost all admit. But he cannot be deprived by a merely declaratory sentence..."
Wherefore, it must be firmly stated that a heretical Roman Pontiff would by that very fact forfeit his power."
Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Galatians, Chapter 1, Verses 8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
Oh yes! I think that part of the reason why is due to the rubrics. Like making the Sign of the Cross three times over the Chalice, or the priest’s kneeling/bowing before the tabernacle. Very deliberate, precise and extensive.
And absolutely awesome!
Like An American Mother, I am a convert to Catholicism so I was Protestant too. I thank God for my early faith formation as a Protestant.
LOL!
You know what? I think I’d like to call them “Sedevacantists” because it sounds SO HORRIBLE! LOL!
Thank you so much for the nice little surprise, V’s wife! God bless you! :o)
It is clear to me that you neither believe in Christ’s words, nor do you believe in the power and work of the Holy Spirit.
I’m so sorry. May the Holy Spirit give you His light for the sake of His Divine Mercy.
Yeah, whatever. As for me, I will serve God through the Church Christ established. I’ve read all the SSPX arguments and I still think that they are cowardly chickens. God gave us the vehicle and SSPXers stepped out of it when it was still running instead of trying to take the steering wheel and guide it to safety. They seem to think that the broken bones and bruises are a sign of their bravery when it seems to me that they are a sign of their surrender. Satan will do anything to ruin the church and those who lose the faith and do his bidding in their despair deserve my pity but they try my patience.
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