Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: DouglasKC; Diego1618
Thank you both for your reply.

Douglas - He's partially right. The son of "perdition" spoken of here probably is Judas:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

I believe Christ is speaking about all those given to Him....not just the disciples, but all souls. For instance, in the same chapter, just a few verses before the above, He said:

John 17:2 As Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him.

Then, a few verses later, (17:12 above) He said that He kept them in His name and none were lost. To me, He wasn't speaking about the disciples but all souls. He then adds that only the son of perdition was lost. The only one named that has been condemned to perdition is Satan.

John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

As you pointed out, the Thessalonian scriptures certainly point to anti-christ (I believe Satan is the anti-christ, or is a role he plays.)

Douglas - That's just to illustrate that the word "perdition" shouldn't be the criteria for determining who it is.

Diego - Very good point....and a very good study. I remember a similar study years ago....but had forgotten how confusing this can be when we narrow a "KJV" word down and try to build a theology based upon an ambiguous word.

Perdition - 684 - apoleia, from a presumed der. of #622.....(snip) #622 - apollumi, a destroyer, i.e.Satan - apollyon

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

If Satan is Apollyon and Apollyon means perdition then it seems that the son of perdition would be Satan. It is always shown in the singular, never plural. It seems there can only be one.

Am I way off base with this? Do you think there is more than one son of perdition? Satan was condemned before this age began. In this age, there is only one unpardonable sin and as terrible as what Judas did....it wasn't that named sin. Also, Christ selected Judas for the deed, to accomplish what He came to earth for. And....Judas repented, whether or not it was a heart felt repentance I don't know.

.........Ping

817 posted on 12/10/2007 4:28:50 PM PST by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 815 | View Replies ]


To: Ping-Pong; Diego1618
Then, a few verses later, (17:12 above) He said that He kept them in His name and none were lost. To me, He wasn't speaking about the disciples but all souls. He then adds that only the son of perdition was lost. The only one named that has been condemned to perdition is Satan.

That doesn't seem to work for a couple of reasons:

1. Satan isn't the only angelic being that was lost:

Luk 11:15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

Beelzebub (Satan) is the chief of devils.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

It would seem that these are just as lost as Satan.

2. If all souls are given to him, then Christ said that some would not ever know him:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If Satan is Apollyon and Apollyon means perdition then it seems that the son of perdition would be Satan. It is always shown in the singular, never plural. It seems there can only be one.

I don't think Apollyon means "perdition". If you look at the greek:

Apolluōn

ap-ol-loo'-ohn
Active participle of G622; a destroyer (that is, Satan): - Apollyon.

Note that Apollyon is the active participle of Strongs G622:

apollumi

ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Perdition, on the other hand, is:

apōleia

ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Apollyon and perdition are both thought to have derived from the same word, but "perdition" seems to have softer meaning.

But even if Apollyon means perdition, and Satan is Apollyon, the in a real sense Judas could be thought of as the "son of Satan", the son of perdition, because he did Satan's bidding:

Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

In this age, there is only one unpardonable sin and as terrible as what Judas did....it wasn't that named sin. Also, Christ selected Judas for the deed, to accomplish what He came to earth for. And....Judas repented, whether or not it was a heart felt repentance I don't know.

When it comes to scriptural study, as Diego pointed out, you need to be careful about making assumptions based on the English translations of greek words.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders

Judas "repented" is this word:

metamellomai
met-am-el'-lom-ahee
From G3326 and the middle of G3199; to care afterwards, that is, regret: - repent (self).

This word is only used in 5 verses and most often means regret. Judas regretted what he did. He cared AFTER he did it. But there's a different word that's always used to describe the repentance that leads to life:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The "repent" here is:

metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

This word is used 34 time and always to refer to Godly repentance.

If you don't have one you should invest in a good concordance. There is a freeware (well donation) bible software program called "E-Sword" that has many dictionaries and concordances all free.

I thank you my friend for bringing this up. It is making an interesting study.

818 posted on 12/10/2007 7:25:54 PM PST by DouglasKC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 817 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson