11 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
Chronicles was written after Samuel so it is fair to say Ezra or Nehemiah....whom ever the author was...... simply referred to Satan as the instigator of the entire affair of II Samuel. It was understood that David had been influenced by something evil.
The numbering of Israel and Judah was for military purposes and the question would be.....who was the "he" in [II Samuel 24:1]?
The victories always came from God by Israel doing exactly what The Lord had instructed. God did not need the armies counted! Sometimes it only took a few Israelites to destroy an entire enemy force....sometimes a single man. God always overpowered the enemies of Israel through "HIS" supernatural power.
The "he" was not God....it was Satan and by the time I Chronicles was written, it was common knowledge that David had been influenced by Satan to do the census.
[I Chronicles 21:1-4] And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.
[II Samuel 24:1-4] And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people. And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing? Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.
Joab knew this wasn't from God or he would have not said what he said! He knew this was not a good thing and he let his opinion be well known. He says basically, "God has always given us the right amount of men to do the job. Why do we need to count them?" Well....the King's word was law and David's orders were law. Remember, the instigation was by Satan....and Satan wanted the census taken....to undermine the Holy protection offered to Israel by The Lord God! Satan wanted the folks to turn inward.....to themselves for their own protection.....ignoring God.
Joab knew exactly what was going on and he was dead set against it.....but, he was not in charge! He tells David that the only time Israel needed to be numbered was when Moses had taken the census in Numbers which then allowed a fighting man to be listed on the roster and allowed him to claim land for his family in the promised land. This is now over four hundred years later and David is no longer depending on The Lord God for his victories!
Finally.......[I Chronicles 21:8] And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
And......[II Samuel 24:10] And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. If the census had been requested by The Lord as your correspondent seems to think.......why then would David ask for forgiveness.....from God?
Thank you for your quick and thorough response.
I’ll give her your explantion of those scriptures today and see if she listens or not.
She has an enormous ego and it isn’t completely unfounded as she also has an enormous intellect but one tires of the subtle, and at times, not so subtle, reminders about it.
She hints that her vast knowledge of the Bible and knowing so many hidden things (such as God and Satan being one), are from what she calls “personal experience.” She never elaborates but dangles her, what I term, “magic carpet ride” with God in front of the rest of us lowly mortals.
Normally this would be easy to ignore....using the kick the dust off teaching, but so many very impressionable young people think she is all knowing. They are involved in things God explicitly tells us to stay away from, such as homosexuality, worshipping mother earth or various other mythological garbage or she tells them there really is no devil....not to worry, all of you are going to be fine.
She is tickling their ears and they believe her. I truly wonder at times who has really been instructing her in her “personal experiences.” I think of the serpent in the garden twisting the Words of God and leading some astray.
I know that sounds “far-fetched” but it is how I feel. Knowing that, I hope you won’t mind getting more questions, that is, if she continues to talk to me because she actually challenged me yesterday. She said that if I found it necessary to continue to correct her that we could consider it a biblical fight. So....a bloody, beat-up Ping may be asking questions from a superior weapon ~ Diego.
Thank you again,
...........Ping
On another forum someone asked the following question:
When the Israelites left captivity, they left in a hurry, but took their livestock with them. In Exodus 10:25 Moses tells Pharaoh they needed the animals for sacrifices and burnt offerings, In Exodus 16, the Israelites are grumbling because they are hungry so God send manna for them to eat. We know that they still had the livestock, because in Exodus Chapter 17 they are grumbling again for water for themselves and their cattle (livestock).
Were the cattle (livestock) only for sacrifice? While they were wandering in the wilderness, they weren’t very obedient and it doesn’t tell us that they kept the Passover. While they were camped at Mt. Sinai there was some shenanigans going on (making a golden calf and such).
Once the generation died that had left Egypt and they were ready to finally enter the Promised Land, the first thing they did was get back into fellowship with God. They re-established the covenant of circumcision (Joshua 5:7-9) and they also celebrated Passover for the first time since they left Egypt. At this point the manna stopped.
Now, my question is, since they were not obedient to God for all those years, why didn’t they eat the cattle? They stopped and camped along the way, so they could have done butchering. The animals came with them and didn’t all die off (young ones had to have been born). God did send them quail, but I just can’t find a satisfactory reason for them not to have eaten the cattle. What do you think?
Well....what do you think? One of the answers was that there wouldn't have been an abundance of cattle (because of the plagues in Egypt) so they conserved them. It seems a 40 year span would have given them time to multiply.
Anyway, it's an interesting question and I wondered what your thoughts would be.
........Ping