Let me get this straight. I post a comment you interpret to mean I will post no more to you. Then I post another comment to you, and you fault me for it?
My friend, as long as you post to me, I will post to you on this topic. This should have been evident since I have responded to your every post.
We can continue years, if necessary. With the caveat that I will not move to another thread, so you may use that anytime to get out of the pressure, or you can do as has been done in the past with this topic: summon a bunch of contentious supporters, confuse the issue, make wild and acrimonious statements, complain to the moderator and get the thread pulled.
So disabuse yourself of fond wishes.
The chapter is Zech 13 are dealing with future events.
Yeah? Where in the future. Prove you answer in that scripture.
How, I come to my conclusion is reading what the scriptures say and not pick my way through them to find verses to match what I 'want to believe' You just go through Scripture ignoring ones that tell you of future events, such as Matthew 24.
Yes, but what future time? Show me in the passages you were citing.
The instant issue is the numbers of the Israelites. You have been trying very hard to refute the notion there is more Israelites on Earth that are not Jews.
To this end, in order to explain the clear words of Hosea and Ezekiel, you must place the reuniting far into the future to a Millennium of which neither you nor I know the specifics of, or can accurately interpret the symbolism of Revelation.
In order to do this you must have the Jews the last line of Israelites on Earth, with, I suppose the past dead Israelites being raised from the dead to join their brothers and bring blessings to all nations. You must do this because God has promised that the Israelites would cover the Earth and bless all nations, which certainly hasn't happened.
When the dead are raised, will there be nations, and how exactly, would they be blessed, once the dead are in their spiritual bodies, as Christ said? How will they choose one head? What need they even of a head in that state?
You have been forced into this silly position because you cannot abide the notion that there are other Israelites extant, now, than the Jews, and don't call themselves Jews, a simple explanation for all of it in one uncomplicated truth.
Well, neither you nor I know how many of the northern kingdom were captured, the number of men not fighting men, the number of fighting men that were killed and the number of women and children that survived to produce more northern kingdom numbers.
The only guidance we have is past cites of numbers of the Israelites. And that number has been huge, particularly for the worlds population during those times. So it must be presumed that large numbers of the Israelites survived the capture and, adding to that number over the generations on the Assyrian northern border, a very large number escape the Assyrian when Assyria fell.
Your task, to support your notion that the Jews are the only Israelites left on Earth today is to prove that those numbers were either tiny to begin with and all but disappeared during the time of Christ.
Nowhere have you come close. Like this last cite. You will have to specify exactly where in scripture it is that 1/3 of Israelites are all that is left today.
God is blessing the nations of the Earth and He is using those Gentile nations that bless Israel to do so (Gen.12).
God said that Abraham's descendants will bless all nations. There is no mention of "gentiles".
No one has 'forgotten their heritage', they have lost their genealogical records so, they do not know which particular tribes they belong to, but they know they are of the lineage of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and are not Gentiles.
You agreed in a prior post that God ordained that the Israelites would loose the memory of their heritage, in so many words. If you force me to go through all these posts to find it, I will, but you should know it.
Have you found that Jew yet and asked what tribe he belongs to. Then, when he answers, tell him he really can't know, and see what he says. To share with me when you do.
Clearly, you have no intention of allowing Scripture to change your own warped theology.
But you've cited no passages that that place the coming to pass of Hosea and Ezekiel take place in the Millennium. You don't even know what the Millennium is nor how it will come to pass. All you have is symbology in Revelation that could mean many things, but you interpret to support your own beliefs.
That the Jews will undergo great tribulation after the Rapture of the Church (Jer.30:7, 1Thess.4:16)
This is Jeremiah 30, starting at 1 and including 7.
1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2"This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in abook all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days arecoming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity [a] and restore them tothe land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."
4 These are the words the LORD spoke concerning Israel andJudah: 5 "This is what the LORD says:
" 'Cries of fear are heard—
terror, not peace.
6 Ask and see:
Can a man bear children?
Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
every face turned deathly pale?
7 How awful that day will be!
None will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
but he will be saved out of it. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
I think you would have to have been already convinced of several notions in order to interpret these passages in this way.
There are no times, dates and references beyond a pre-conception.
that an Anti-Christ will arise that will come to power in peace, but will soon wage war against Israel (Dan.11, Rev.13)
Daniel 11 could be talking about anything. There is nothing there about an Anti-Christ.
Revelation 13 says nothing about Israel. I would be careful about using Revelation for anything specific. It consists of symbolism and neither you nor I have any idea what that symbolism represents on Earth.
and that He will be destroyed by the return of Christ (Dan. 2, Rev.19)
Daniel 2 has nothing at all even related to your claim. There is no mention of an Anti-Christ or Israelites.
As before, be wary of using Revelation.
and the Millennial reign will begin (Isa.65, Ezek 40-48, Rev.20).
These likewise have nothing related to what you are trying to build.
All these cites with the rolling thunder of Anti-Christ giving rise to the Millennial time fail when the scriptures you cite are examined closely.
You would have to be using the Bible as a lumberyard, browsing for passages you can possibly interpret to support what you already believe.
No reasonable man would read these passages and come the your conclusions.
You have not been able to refute a single scripture that I have given you.
Maybe not in your eyes, which have an agenda to support, but to the eyes of any other not invested in that agenda. I have shown entirely reasonable interpretation to the passages you have posted, shown that passages you post mention or mean nothing of what you claim they mention or men.
You give cites but do not reproduce the specific passages in your response, and frequently your cites are whole chapters which, when read, are off point entirely. But it certainly looks good to put out those scriptural cites, it impresses those who don't check your references.
The children of Israel do not compose the great nations, so my opinion on it is irrelevant.
I asked you, "Tell me, would you think that the children of Israel composing the great nations would be a good thing? If not, why not?"
You avoided the question. Let me clarify, to be gentle on your viewpoint, if main nations of the Earth were composed of the seed of Abraham would that be a good thing, in your estimation?
You going to avoid that one, too?
Would the fact that the children of Israel do not compose the great Gentile nations bother you?
Doesn't bother me at all. I am saved in Christ and, if nonIsraelite, am grafted onto the vine of the covenant, and am part of the new covenant brought by Jesus.
I like to slaughter sacred cows and upset the status quo.
You however, seem to be emotionally invested in your convictions, as evidenced by tones of contempt, lack of decorum, nastiness and demeaning rhetoric and name calling.
All of these reactions denote a man unsure of himself, holding to an agenda he judges essential to his survival, and experiencing great fear when challenged with reasonable arguments against his dogma.
Let me get this straight. I post a comment you interpret to mean I will post no more to you. Then I post another comment to you, and you fault me for it? My friend, as long as you post to me, I will post to you on this topic. This should have been evident since I have responded to your every post. First, you stated that it was your last post in the series-which it clearly wasn't
Second, since you started posting to me it is up to you to let me finish the posts-not you.
So, clearly, as with everything else you have a problem with simple etiquette.
So, as long as you continue to post to me, I have the right to respond, which I am doing.
We can continue years, if necessary. With the caveat that I will not move to another thread, so you may use that anytime to get out of the pressure, or you can do as has been done in the past with this topic: summon a bunch of contentious supporters, confuse the issue, make wild and acrimonious statements, complain to the moderator and get the thread pulled.
Oh, no, I wouldn't think of it.
I will continue to respond to your idiotic, irrational nonsense as long as you keep posting it.
So disabuse yourself of fond wishes.
I have all the time in the world, so go at it.
It is no problem for me just to expose your theory as utter nonsense, devoid of any reason or Biblical truth.
[ The chapter is Zech 13 are dealing with future events. ]
Yeah? Where in the future. Prove you answer in that scripture.
Read chapter 12, and you will see the Lord's return in vs.10.
That hasn't happened yet.
Chapter 13 follows chapter 12.
And Chapter 13:9 hasn't happened yet either.
I know scripture is a mystery to you, but you ought to try reading it once in a while.
[ How, I come to my conclusion is reading what the scriptures say and not pick my way through them to find verses to match what I 'want to believe' You just go through Scripture ignoring ones that tell you of future events, such as Matthew 24. ]
Yes, but what future time? Show me in the passages you were citing.
The Tribulation, Matt.24:29-it says that right in the passage.
Now, I am not going to do your reading for you anymore.
You clearly a very lazy person when it comes to actually studying anything, thinking that your great 'reasoning' abilities are sufficient enough to forgo actual reading.
The instant issue is the numbers of the Israelites. You have been trying very hard to refute the notion there is more Israelites on Earth that are not Jews.
No, what I am refuting is the myth that Israelites are not Jews, they are both the same and are called the same, since they have both intermingled together as a people and do not know any longer their individual tribes.
To this end, in order to explain the clear words of Hosea and Ezekiel, you must place the reuniting far into the future to a Millennium of which neither you nor I know the specifics of, or can accurately interpret the symbolism of Revelation.
It doesn't have to be that far into the Millennium.
A couple of centuries will repopulate the earth as well as Israel.
As for Revelation, the symbolism is explained in the Old Testament and it is clear that a Millennial reign will occur after a great Tribulation.
You just don't want to deal with what prophecy actually says.
In order to do this you must have the Jews the last line of Israelites on Earth, with, I suppose the past dead Israelites being raised from the dead to join their brothers and bring blessings to all nations. You must do this because God has promised that the Israelites would cover the Earth and bless all nations, which certainly hasn't happened.
It hasn't happened, but it will.
And it can, given enough time and perfect environment.
So, it makes alot more sense then to depend on your myth that the Israelites are someone else, like the Americans and British!
LOL!
Most of the world is going to be destroyed as well in the Tribulation as well, so there is not going to be anyone left that will constitute the sands of the seas.
You just want to deny the fact of the Tribulation occurring and the effects it is going to have on the world, which the Lord made very clear in Matt.24.
When the dead are raised, will there be nations, and how exactly, would they be blessed, once the dead are in their spiritual bodies, as Christ said? How will they choose one head? What need they even of a head in that state?
I have to admit, your ignorance of prophecy is really mind-numbing.
The dead in Christ will rise (1Cor.15) and they will be rulers in the Millennial kingdom, with Christ as the head, as the son of David (Ps.89).
You have been forced into this silly position because you cannot abide the notion that there are other Israelites extant, now, than the Jews, and don't call themselves Jews, a simple explanation for all of it in one uncomplicated truth.
No, you have adopted your idiotic theory because you do not know any prophecy, Bible, history or logic.
What you are talking about is simply fables based on ignorance of the truth.
Well, neither you nor I know how many of the northern kingdom were captured, the number of men not fighting men, the number of fighting men that were killed and the number of women and children that survived to produce more northern kingdom numbers. The only guidance we have is past cites of numbers of the Israelites. And that number has been huge, particularly for the worlds population during those times. So it must be presumed that large numbers of the Israelites survived the capture and, adding to that number over the generations on the Assyrian northern border, a very large number escape the Assyrian when Assyria fell.
You cannot assume anything of the sought, since the capital city of Samaria when it fell had only 27,000 people in it.
God was whittling down the Northern Kingdom for years before the final deportation.
So once again, your theory has no historical support, only conjecture that disregards the historical facts.
Your task, to support your notion that the Jews are the only Israelites left on Earth today is to prove that those numbers were either tiny to begin with and all but disappeared during the time of Christ.
No, I don't have to prove anything.
You have to prove that there were large numbers deported-which you can't.
You have to prove that those large numbers moved-which you can't.
You have to prove that those same tribes lost their memory of who they were and became someone else-which you can't.
Now, I do not have to prove anything except to show that there is no a shred of historical fact to support your idiotic theory.
It is up to you to prove any of those assertions listed.
Since you cannot, your theory falls flat on its face.
The number of Jews were scattered throughout Europe, in the Roman Empire and that is a well known fact.
Your assertion that there has to be a certain number of Jews to fufill God's promise is a false premise that is not necessarily for God to fufill God's Plan.
Nowhere have you come close. Like this last cite. You will have to specify exactly where in scripture it is that 1/3 of Israelites are all that is left today.
Try looking at Zech. 13:9.
But as I said about you, your ignorance of the Bible is quite mind numbing as well as your inablity to read clear, plain English.
[ God is blessing the nations of the Earth and He is using those Gentile nations that bless Israel to do so (Gen.12). ]
God said that Abraham's descendants will bless all nations. There is no mention of "gentiles".
And Gentiles make up all nations.
For added prove look up Isa.49:6 as well.
[ No one has 'forgotten their heritage', they have lost their genealogical records so, they do not know which particular tribes they belong to, but they know they are of the lineage of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and are not Gentiles. ]
You agreed in a prior post that God ordained that the Israelites would loose the memory of their heritage, in so many words. If you force me to go through all these posts to find it, I will, but you should know it.
Please show me I ever said that the Israelites would ever lose the memory of their heritage.
What they have lost is memory of their particular tribe, not that they are of the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Have you found that Jew yet and asked what tribe he belongs to. Then, when he answers, tell him he really can't know, and see what he says. To share with me when you do.
And once again, what any Jew says regarding his own tribe is irrelevant since he cannot know what tribe he is from-there are no records.
So, what tribe are you from, since you must think you are an Israelite?
[ Clearly, you have no intention of allowing Scripture to change your own warped theology. ]
But you've cited no passages that that place the coming to pass of Hosea and Ezekiel take place in the Millennium. You don't even know what the Millennium is nor how it will come to pass. All you have is symbology in Revelation that could mean many things, but you interpret to support your own beliefs.
Oh, the Millennium is clearly laid out in the Old Testament, in many Books, so stop playing ignorant.
It is clear that there will be a tribulation first and then a Millennial reign in which Hosea will be fulfilled.
So, your theory that millions of Israelites must exist so that Hosea can be fufilled is just another stupid illconceived assertion on your part, not based on any correct reading of scripture.
[ That the Jews will undergo great tribulation after the Rapture of the Church (Jer.30:7, 1Thess.4:16) ]
This is Jeremiah 30, starting at 1 and including 7. 1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2"This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in abook all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days arecoming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity [a] and restore them tothe land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD." 4 These are the words the LORD spoke concerning Israel andJudah: 5 "This is what the LORD says: " 'Cries of fear are heard— terror, not peace. 6 Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale? 7 How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.I think you would have to have been already convinced of several notions in order to interpret these passages in this way. There are no times, dates and references beyond a pre-conception.
And what part of those verses do you have a hard time understanding?
Clearly there will be a time of Jacobs trouble (tribulation) and before that the Church will be removed since the church is not Jacob-Israel.
[ that an Anti-Christ will arise that will come to power in peace, but will soon wage war against Israel (Dan.11, Rev.13) Daniel 11 could be talking about anything. There is nothing there about an Anti-Christ.
Verses 11:36:45 are referring to the future Anti-Christ.
But in order to know that you would have actually read your Bible a few times.
Revelation 13 says nothing about Israel. I would be careful about using Revelation for anything specific. It consists of symbolism and neither you nor I have any idea what that symbolism represents on Earth.
Revelation speaks of the Anti-Christ and Chapter 12 refers to Israel.
As for the symbolism of Revelation, it can be understood if one takes the time to compare the verses with others with the same symbolism, but for those who would prefer to live in a fantasy world, that would be too much trouble.
[ and that He will be destroyed by the return of Christ (Dan. 2, Rev.19) ]
Daniel 2 has nothing at all even related to your claim. There is no mention of an Anti-Christ or Israelites.
The Stone made without hands destroys the anti-Christ's Kingdom, that is Christ.
Surely you have Christ referred to as the Stone (1Pe.2:6)?
As before, be wary of using Revelation.
I am not wary about using Revelation, since it is the word of God and is very clear to those who actually read the Bible and not use the Bible to make up false theologies.
[ and the Millennial reign will begin (Isa.65, Ezek 40-48, Rev.20). ]
These likewise have nothing related to what you are trying to build.
Ofcourse they are, but you just keep denying what you don't want to admit.
All these cites with the rolling thunder of Anti-Christ giving rise to the Millennial time fail when the scriptures you cite are examined closely.
No, they stand up very well,
But you actually to have know scripture to understand that-which you don't.
You would have to be using the Bible as a lumberyard, browsing for passages you can possibly interpret to support what you already believe.
Now, I am using the Bible the way it is suppose to be used, comparing scripture with scripture not ignoring those that don't fit my theological paradigm-which is what you are doing
No reasonable man would read these passages and come the your conclusions.
And what makes you think anyone could be considered reasonable who would put forth a theory that has not facts such as yours?
You are not reasonable, so your views on what is reasonable, and anything else mean nothing to me.
You have shown yourself ignorant of the Bible, history, reading ability, and logic.
[ You have not been able to refute a single scripture that I have given you. ]
Maybe not in your eyes, which have an agenda to support, but to the eyes of any other not invested in that agenda. I have shown entirely reasonable interpretation to the passages you have posted, shown that passages you post mention or mean nothing of what you claim they mention or men.
You have given nothing to refute those scriptures except that you do not believe they say what they do.
Your refutation is the same as it is with all facts given to you-you simply brush them off and supply nothing in their place except empty rhetoric and hot air.
You give cites but do not reproduce the specific passages in your response, and frequently your cites are whole chapters which, when read, are off point entirely. But it certainly looks good to put out those scriptural cites, it impresses those who don't check your references.
Look them up, I am not here to teach you Bible.
You are just a very lazy individual.
[ The children of Israel do not compose the great nations, so my opinion on it is irrelevant. ]
I asked you, "Tell me, would you think that the children of Israel composing the great nations would be a good thing? If not, why not?" You avoided the question. Let me clarify, to be gentle on your viewpoint, if main nations of the Earth were composed of the seed of Abraham would that be a good thing, in your estimation? You going to avoid that one, too?
And I am going to tell you once more, that the question is a moot one since the 'great nation's' of the world do not constitute the Israelites.
So stop asking stupid questions that have nothing to do with reality.
Would the fact that the children of Israel do not compose the great Gentile nations bother you? Doesn't bother me at all. I am saved in Christ and, if nonIsraelite, am grafted onto the vine of the covenant, and am part of the new covenant brought by Jesus.
If you are saved, you are not part of any 'new covenant' that is for Israel, not the Church.
I like to slaughter sacred cows and upset the status quo. You however, seem to be emotionally invested in your convictions, as evidenced by tones of contempt, lack of decorum, nastiness and demeaning rhetoric and name calling.
No, what you like to do is spread lies and think that you are a clever person,(Satan is very clever also), when in fact, you are quite an ignorant one.
All of these reactions denote a man unsure of himself, holding to an agenda he judges essential to his survival, and experiencing great fear when challenged
You haven't challenged anything, you have just made alot of empty noise.
You are wise in your own conceits' you have no knowledge of a single subject you discussed.
Now, as I said, if you want to continue you goofy nonsense, feel free.
You began the series of posts and I have the right to respond to them.
But bring some facts with you, not conjecture and stupid, irrelevant questions.
And if you do post to me I will get to your posts and respond to them with the respect they are due to them-none.
ONLY A THEORY
The theory teaches that when God’s people returned to Palestine after the captivity, only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi really returned. The “House of Israel”, meaning the ten lost tribes, scattered. By Jesus’ day, supposedly only three tribes were represented. According to the theory, the “House of Israel” was missing.
THE BIBLE SPEAKS
The Apostle Peter was, however, unaware of British Israelism teaching, since he uttered these words at Acts 2: 36,
“Therefore let all the HOUSE OF ISRAEL know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
ARE “ISRAEL” AND “JEW” ALWAYS DIFFERENT?
Armstrong taught that “Israel” and “Jew” were two separate nations. “Jew” always meant “The House of Judah”, and “Israel” meant “the lost ten tribes”. 2 Kings 17:18-23 is a favorite passage of British-Israelism devotees, so let’s consider it.
“So the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; none was left except the tribe of Judah. Also Judah did not keep the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the customs which Israel had introduced.
And the LORD rejected all the descendants of Israel and afflicted them and gave them into the hand of plunderers, until He had cast them out of His sight. When He had torn Israel from the house of David,they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king.
Then Jeroboam drove Israel away from following the LORD, and made them commit a great sin. And the the sons of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them, until the LORD removed Israel from His sight, as He spoke through all His servants the prophets. So Israel was carried away into exile from their own land to Assyria until this day”.
Notice the last phrase of this scripture. Israel went as far as Assyria until this day! They relocated, but not far away, certainly not across oceans! Certainly not scattered far afield!
THE REBUILDING OF JERUSALEM IN NEHEMIAH’S DAY
According to the British-Israelism theory only Jews should have been participating in rebuilding Jerusalem since the house of Israel was “long gone”. Yet Ezra uses the words “all Israel” several times in the account. (Ezra 2:70; 6:17; 8:25,35; 10:5; Nehemiah 7:73; 12:47). Evidently the terms “Jew” and “Israel” were used interchangeably, thus spoiling the unsupported theory of British-Israelism.
THE TEN TRIBES IN CHRIST’S DAY
If the ten tribes were gone by Christ’s day, how does the B-I theory explain that Anna the Prophetess was of the tribe of Asher? (Luke 2:36). Paul mentioned all twelve tribes. (Acts 26:6,7). James mentioned all twelve tribes. (James 1:1).
The book of Revelation tells of 12,000 people from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. (Revelation 7:4-8). All Israel shall be saved, eventually. (Romans 11:26).
Upon consulting a Jewish rabbi, he assured me the list in Revelation was a literal one, as are the other lists in the Bible, although they differ from one another for various reasons. The Revelation list is not “figurative” or “spiritual” allowing for interpretation to apply to some other nation, but applies to literal Israel.
CHRIST THE KING
Since Christ had a sign over his head on the crucifixion reading “King of the Jews”, are we to assume that He was King for Judah only? No, for the scriptures are plain that Christ was the promised Messiah for all Israel. The disciples understood this when they questioned Him in Acts 16, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the Kingdom to ISRAEL?”
Obviously, “Jew” and “Israel” were used interchangeably in Christ’s day.
After putting up the sign “King of the Jews”, His mockers then said, “He is the King of Israel’; Let Him now come down from the cross and we shall believe in Him”. (Matthew 27:42). Again, the terms interchange.
CONCLUSIONS ON BRITISH-ISRAELISM
British-Israelism is not a revelation from God as some teach. Rather it is a theory that cannot stand up to Biblical or scientific examination. It should be rejected by those professing Christianity.
http://www.macgregorministries.org/cult_groups/british_isralism.html