No, the identity of the individual tribes are lost, but the race of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is still in existance, all 12 tribes as Jews. Do the Jews know who among them are from Judah or Benjamin? No, even among the Jews, who you state are only from the South, there is no knowledge of what particlur tribe any individual is, Judah or Benjamin. The tribes you know as Jews are the remnants of the southern kingdom returned from Babylon. Every Jew I have known knows which tribe they belong to. I've know four well enough to know what tribe they were. Three were Judah and one Levite.
As was discussed there were individuals from northern tribes that joined Judah before the Assyrians. That would mean you would encounter other than Judah, Benjamin and Levi in records.
There are sprinklings, but nothing more than the amount there would be factoring in those who joined Judah before the Assyrians. The House of Judah were captured together and returned together. They keep very good records of their origins.
Don't you know any Jews well enough for them to share their tribes?
You are trying to use the wrong criteria. Judah was contaminated before they were taken by the Babylonians.
Now stop your nonsense! There was no count in the Old Testament at the time of the removal of the 10 tribes that stated any population. What the Old Testament did state was that before Israel was removed, God had began to cut it short, so that it had no army left.
No nonsense. This topic was discussed years ago. A poster had estimated the strength of the northern kingdom and had cited a Biblical count of men in, I think it was Kings, of enough to expand to a population of around 4 or 5 million.
The count was well before the Assyrians, but you would have to agree the tribes would hardly have diminished before the Assyrian invasion.
I looked it up and verified it but don't remember. You're certain free to find it. I'm not going to waste my time because you wouldn't accept the standard expansion anyway. It would destroy your position. Take my word for, or don't.
No army left? Really. Even if there were "no army left" there were still women and children, and males.
Suffice to say, we are talking about 10 tribes as compared to 2. You make your own judgments.
You would 'guess'? They were put under a curse for idol worship (Deut.28, Lev.26). God kept Israel alive as Jews, combing all 12 tribes as one people who returned to the Land, but not as individual tribes.
Why, yes, I would guess. Isn't that what what you're doing? You have no evidence, even logic, that would suggest that the northern kingdom returned to Palestine. the only function of that position is to have something, anything that would explain the lack of whereabouts of Israel. Then Hosea and Ezekiel further nails it.
Show me what make you think that "God kept Israel alive as Jews combining all 12 tribes.? Even the scripture in the New Testament disagrees with you.
Yes, I suppose they did and lost their identity.
Yes, they lost their identity, which is a large argument against combining with Judah. If they had, they would have retained it, as records were always kept.
Go ahead and find you a Jew, and ask him if he knows what tribe he belongs to.
We are not talking about the Southern Kingdom, which ended up in the Babylonian Kingdom for 70 years and returned to the Land as Jews We are talking about the 10 tribes which were taken by the Assyrians into their empire and disappeared from history.
If they disappeared from history, you have no knowledge to base your presumption that they returned to Palestine, whereas there are Assyrian records that show Israelite customary dress, and describe attributes of Hebrews, different names they were called, but close enough to be phonetic version of their real names.
All you have is conjecture to counter a theory you find personally repugnant whether it may be the truth or not. You don't seem to be seeking the truth; you seem to be working to maintain some status quo that you are comfortable with.
Oh stop making up history! There is no record of the 10 tribes 'whipping the Assyrians and making their escape. We know what nations were involved in whipping the Assyrians and they weren't the Israelites. So do you have any actual facts-no, you don't. Maybe UFO's came down and took them to North America and they are really the American Indian?
There is no record of the Israelites in the main assault by Nabopolassar and Medes on Nineveh, either. But Israel was on the northern border with the Medes after they were captured by the Assyrians.
Your history was not and never was oriented toward the House of Israel. So, it means nothing to this discussion. I might be impressed if you gave some history that discusses or mentions them in the Assyrian conflict. However, we know they were there.
None of your history takes into consideration the actual Assyrian tablets and the info thereon, either.
Why don't you go to a British Museum site and see what it says about the tablets, cylinders and other writings that actually came from Assyria and were written by the Assyrians alive at the time?
No one is recorded to have gone North through Turkey.
No, there is no tablet that actually says, "And the Israelite tribes went north to Turkey." There are just indication in records that men in Israelite priestly garb were sighted north of Assyria after the main conflicts.
I don't have absolutely definitive records with the precise reporting you seem to require, but it appears to be more than you have.
[No, the identity of the individual tribes are lost, but the race of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is still in existance, all 12 tribes as Jews. Do the Jews know who among them are from Judah or Benjamin? No, even among the Jews, who you state are only from the South, there is no knowledge of what particlur tribe any individual is, Judah or Benjamin.]
The tribes you know as Jews are the remnants of the southern kingdom returned from Babylon. Every Jew I have known knows which tribe they belong to. I've know four well enough to know what tribe they were. Three were Judah and one Levite.
Stop your lying.
Individual Jews do not know if they are from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin or Levi.
Any genealogies to prove what tribe they are from?
No, because there are no more genealogies that trace the tribes as there were in Ezra.
[ As was discussed there were individuals from northern tribes that joined Judah before the Assyrians. That would mean you would encounter other than Judah, Benjamin and Levi in records. ]
There are sprinklings, but nothing more than the amount there would be factoring in those who joined Judah before the Assyrians. The House of Judah were captured together and returned together. They keep very good records of their origins.
And there were those who did not show up in the records that were in the Land as well, such as the tribe of Aser.
And do they have any records today tracing their ancestor ship?
Those records were destroyed when the Temple was destroyed.
Except for DNA testing, no Jew knows what tribe he is originally from.
Don't you know any Jews well enough for them to share their tribes?
Any Jew that claims he is from a particular tribe can only state he thinks he is from that tribe.
He has no proof, no way of tracing his origin back to the the original 12 tribes-and you know it.
Stop blowing smoke.
You are trying to use the wrong criteria. Judah was contaminated before they were taken by the Babylonians.
I don't know what you mean by 'contaminated'.
But all 12 tribes were present in the South, when Judah and Benjamin went into captivity.
[ Now stop your nonsense! There was no count in the Old Testament at the time of the removal of the 10 tribes that stated any population. What the Old Testament did state was that before Israel was removed, God had began to cut it short, so that it had no army left. ]
No nonsense. This topic was discussed years ago. A poster had estimated the strength of the northern kingdom and had cited a Biblical count of men in, I think it was Kings, of enough to expand to a population of around 4 or 5 million.
Well, it isn't in Kings.
So, if you cannot provide the actual verse to show it, it just shows that you do not know what you are talking about.
More hot air.
The count was well before the Assyrians, but you would have to agree the tribes would hardly have diminished before the Assyrian invasion. I looked it up and verified it but don't remember. You're certain free to find it. I'm not going to waste my time because you wouldn't accept the standard expansion anyway. It would destroy your position. Take my word for, or don't.
No word to take.
It is clear from your evasion and lying you do not have any proof.
And know you state that the count was 'well before the Assyrians' which could mean anytime.
Well, the kingdom was under judgment and being smitten by God so the numbers were shrinking rapidly.
So, the fact is you have no legitimate reason to claim you know how many people went into exile.
Yet, another unsubstantiated claim.
No army left? Really. Even if there were "no army left" there were still women and children, and males.
And what were their numbers?
You don't know.
And the size of a nations army is good indication of the relative population.
Now, why don't you find the verse that actually gives the number of peopel that went into exile.
I will accept the number of men that went into exile.
Your theory is built in a foundation of lies.
Suffice to say, we are talking about 10 tribes as compared to 2. You make your own judgments.
Yes, the judgment that one is forced to come to is that you don't know what you are talking about.
The tribe of Benjamin was once down to 600 men, with no women and children left (Ju.21).
[ You would 'guess'? They were put under a curse for idol worship (Deut.28, Lev.26). God kept Israel alive as Jews, combing all 12 tribes as one people who returned to the Land, but not as individual tribes. ]
Why, yes, I would guess. Isn't that what what you're doing? You have no evidence, even logic, that would suggest that the northern kingdom returned to Palestine. the only function of that position is to have something, anything that would explain the lack of whereabouts of Israel. Then Hosea and Ezekiel further nails it.
No, the Bible tells us that the lost house of Israel was back in Israel (Mat.15, Acts,2,7).
Now, since each tribe is among the Jews, we don't need to look any further for them.
So you are making up history to support your own lack of Bible knowledge.
Show me what make you think that "God kept Israel alive as Jews combining all 12 tribes.? Even the scripture in the New Testament disagrees with you.
No, the scripture states clearly that the house of Israel was present during the Lord's day, since Peter accused them of crucifying the Lord (Acts.2:36).
[ Yes, I suppose they did and lost their identity. ]
Yes, they lost their identity, which is a large argument against combining with Judah. If they had, they would have retained it, as records were always kept.
There are no records of the 12 tribes individual identities that go back to the original 12 tribes.
Go ahead and find you a Jew, and ask him if he knows what tribe he belongs to.
What you mean what tribe he thinks he belongs to.
He has no proof of any tribe since he has no records that go back to the original 12.
[ We are not talking about the Southern Kingdom, which ended up in the Babylonian Kingdom for 70 years and returned to the Land as Jews We are talking about the 10 tribes which were taken by the Assyrians into their empire and disappeared from history. ]
If they disappeared from history, you have no knowledge to base your presumption that they returned to Palestine, whereas there are Assyrian records that show Israelite customary dress, and describe attributes of Hebrews, different names they were called, but close enough to be phonetic version of their real names.
Ofcourse, Assyrians would have proof of Hebrews in their Empire, they were there!
What you have to prove is that they actually left.
As for the tribes being present in the land of Israel during Christ's day, that is proven by Scripture (Mt.15, Acts,2,7).
All you have is conjecture to counter a theory you find personally repugnant whether it may be the truth or not. You don't seem to be seeking the truth; you seem to be working to maintain some status quo that you are comfortable with.
No, I am dealing with facts.
You have accepted a theory with no facts to support it.
You have this assumption that in order for Hosea 1:10-11 to be true, there must be millions of pre-existing Israelites before the Millennial Kingdom.
This comes from your poor reading skills.
'Then' doesn't have to mean 'at that time' it can also mean 'in addition'.
Thus, the Millennial reign will begin with the reuniting of the two divisions of the tribes and as a result, the house of Israel will become as the 'sand of the sea'.
[ Oh stop making up history! There is no record of the 10 tribes 'whipping the Assyrians and making their escape. We know what nations were involved in whipping the Assyrians and they weren't the Israelites. So do you have any actual facts-no, you don't. Maybe UFO's came down and took them to North America and they are really the American Indian? ]
There is no record of the Israelites in the main assault by Nabopolassar and Medes on Nineveh, either. But Israel was on the northern border with the Medes after they were captured by the Assyrians.
And if there is no record of them in the assault, then we have no prove that they were involved in it.
Just because they were there, doesn't mean that they were part of the revolt against Assyria.
Once again you are 'question begging'.
They could have been assimilated into the local population by then.
Your history was not and never was oriented toward the House of Israel. So, it means nothing to this discussion. I might be impressed if you gave some history that discusses or mentions them in the Assyrian conflict. However, we know they were there.
And do you have any facts that discuss their involvement?
You are assuming that they were involved, but being in captivity for over a century, they could have adopted Assyrian culture as well.
One of the curses placed on Israel was that they would be dispersed and adopt the Gentile gods.
So, it is you that have to show that the tribes were still existing as tribes.
That they did actually revolt against the Assyrians.
If you cannot, then you have another conjecture to add to your house of cards.
None of your history takes into consideration the actual Assyrian tablets and the info thereon, either. Why don't you go to a British Museum site and see what it says about the tablets, cylinders and other writings that actually came from Assyria and were written by the Assyrians alive at the time?
And do they say anything other then that the 10 tribes were there-which everyone knows!
Does it say that they revolted?
Does it give their number?
Once again , a irrelvant fact that does nothing to advance your theory that the 10 tribes broke free and left the area for lands unknown.
[ No one is recorded to have gone North through Turkey. ]
No, there is no tablet that actually says, "And the Israelite tribes went north to Turkey." There are just indication in records that men in Israelite priestly garb were sighted north of Assyria after the main conflicts.
Not much to base your theory on.
Individual Jews were dispersed throughout the world, so I am not surprised to see them in Asia minor.
I don't have absolutely definitive records with the precise reporting you seem to require, but it appears to be more than you have.
What I have are facts, what you have is myth based on conjecture.
Stop living in a fantasy world.
Now, unless you can supply some facts, like the number of people in the 12 tribes when they were deported, some proof of their revolting, some evidence of their existence of their migration as the 10 tribes (not individuals) you have nothing to sub stain your false theory.