Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.
The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.
Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.
Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!
Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.
All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.
One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.
Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.
One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.
During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?
Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?
Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?
One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.
Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.
In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.
Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.
What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.
Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.
Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?
Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.
Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.
Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.
The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.
The fact is that the Bible clearly states that remnants of all 12 tribes eventually ended up in Judah. They intermarried and at this point only God knows the genealogies of the Jews. 12,000 of each tribe will be chosen in accordance with the book of Revelation.
Frankly I don’t know why anyone feels the need to make a big deal about it. I don’t plan on being here when it happens. When the age of the Gentiles is complete, I expect to be sitting down at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I expect to be sitting down for a feast when God pours out his wrath upon the earth.
= = =
I rather agree.
Though I’m increasingly of the perspective that only those with their lamps full of Holy Spirit, with extra oil etc. . . . will go up in the first ELEVATOR UP.
You are certainly correct [II Chronicles 11:16-17]....but according to scripture these people should be referred to as "Judah"....not Israel [II Kings 17:18].
When has this tiny little country (or the Jews themselves) ever fulfilled the prophecy of [Genesis 18:18]?
When has this tiny little country (or the Jews themselves) ever fulfilled the prophecy of [Genesis 35:11]?
When has this tiny little country (or the Jews themselves) ever fulfilled the prophecy of [Genesis 48:19]?
When has this tiny little country (or the Jews themselves) ever fulfilled the prophecy of [Genesis 28:14]?
When has this tiny little country (or the Jews themselves) ever fulfilled the prophecy of [Genesis 27:29]?
I'm getting bored with Genesis!
When has this tiny little country (or the Jews themselves) ever fulfilled the prophecy of [II Samuel 7:16]?
When has this tiny little country (or the Jews themselves) ever fulfilled the prophecy of [II Samuel 7:10]?
When has this tiny little country (or the Jews themselves) ever fulfilled the prophecy of [II Samuel 7:13]?
You get the idea. We can go from Genesis to Revelation and understand that the two nations (Israel and Judah) are still separate. We can see that Israel will be reunited with Judah [Hosea 1:10-11] but not before they are dispersed to the ends of the Earth [Amos 9:9]. The 37th chapter of Ezekiel tells us when this reunification will occur. It will be during a general resurrection of the dead.....sometime yet in the future.
I don’t know that haggling over Biblical history on the matter is all that pertinent.
Well....if you don't know that Israel and Judah are still separate you may be attempting to place certain scriptural events in history on the wrong people...in the wrong place...at the wrong time. This might make it pertinent. To some....this is important, but I agree....others don't care.
I suspect there is already DNA data to affirm that the 12 tribes are represented in Israel today and are called collectively, Jews.
And I respectfully submit that there is probably DNA evidence worldwide showing that Israel is indeed dispersed yet....but will return. [Hosea 1:10-11] Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
Hosea wrote those words in the eighth century B.C. close to the time when Israel was exiled to Assyria. The Book of the Kings was written after Judah returned from their exile in Babylon (two hundred years later) and this was said then: [II Kings 17:22-23] For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. We're talking here about the Northern Kingdom of Israel....not the Southern Kingdom of Judah.
In other words they still had not returned and there is no subsequent scripture that shows that they did. Now you can "pooh pooh" this all you want....say it's not pertinent. Most main stream churches don't teach this, not because they don't believe it....but because they don't know it!
Yes, and this fact is key in the massive misunderstanding of "What time is it?" and of "Who is grafted into whom."
I don't think that even needs to be taken literally, as the prophecy is highly metaphorical anyway (clearly defined as such in the passage).
A "dead" Joseph is spoken of here:
Genesis 42:38 And he [Jacob] said, My son [Benjamin] shall not go down with you; for his brother [Joseph] is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
As evidenced on this thread, history repeats: Joseph is *presumed* dead. Joseph knew who he was, but his brothers didn't recognize him, what with his Egyptian garb and position of authority, and his speaking through an interpreter. *If* the pattern repeats (seems like the best route to take if I am going to speculate), the House of Joseph will somehow know/realize who they are (perhaps ala Moses?), and then they will be able to demonstrate this to the House of Judah, and convince via a sign.
Just thinking out loud here, but "son of man' (ben adam) is simply a human being in the Hebrew. I need to reexamine exactly which "son of man" is the subject of certain NT signs. Might prove interesting.
I don't see the number you mention in the paragraph you posted. You'll be kind enough to post the part which contains it and the context. Thank you.
It is in the Bullinger footnote.
I don't have my Bullinger in front of me, so check 1Ki.17 in his study Bible.
Facts are stubborn things. Then you may explain what makes you think that was all of the Israelites?
Oh, that wasn't all the Israelites, that was all the Israelites that went into captivity with the Assyrians.
We know many of the Iraelites were in the South.
"Hearing no more of them" means "assimilated completely"? Please post the good professor's reasoning for the assumption.
Because when they are not heard from anymore and there is no record of them moving anywhere (like the Southern tribes), then that assumption is the most likely and valid.
And since there were not 'millions' of them as you tried to build your case on, it is also very reasonable.
Now unless you can come up with some facts to indicate otherwise, that view must be considered the most logical.
Your view is pure myth and conjecture based on bad historical knowledge.
Correction-that should be 2Ki.17, when the captivity took place.
When people do not want to admit what they believe, that is dishonestly.
They would be if they were presented and relevant. Historians frequently miss a lot, do shoddy research, as the one you cite obviously did, and write to their prejudices or to those of their backers. This unfortunate condition is well known.
Your entire position rests upon the notion that Judah and Israel are already united. Why, then, as Mr. Diego points out, have no prophecies been fulfilled by this "combined" nation? The country called "Israel" has not been a blessing to all nations in any way, shape or form.
If Judah and Israel are still separate, then the question remains: where are they, in the numbers they must be to fulfill prophecy, specifically Hosea and Ezekiel?
What an interesting thought. I always have Joseph as a "type" of our Saviour but he also fits into a "type" for Israel.
The story is about a famine being in the land and Joseph keeping others from starvation. To carry your idea a little farther, could that "famine" in the land represent present day famine for truth, for hearing His Word?
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
I think people are starving for truth now and not many teach it. Who do you believe is the "Moses", or perhaps Elijah, that will awaken the house of Joseph to who they are?
Also, you speak about a time when someone will be able to speak and convince the House of Judah. Could that be what Christ told us of in Luke 21:
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13.And it shall turn to you for a testimony
14.Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15.For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Who do you believe is the "Moses", or perhaps Elijah, that will awaken the house of Joseph to who they are?
Actually I hadn't thought of it that way. My comment about Moses was not worded well. I was thinking that like Joseph, Moses was in a position of authority close to Pharoah. But how much did he know of his heritage? At some point, he knew his brothers were suffering, and he ultimately became their deliverer (savior).
Acts 7:22-23 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
Genesis 45:47
4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
About your above question re Moses. Whatever happened to Ezekiel? Tradition places his tomb in Babylon/Baghdad. His death is not recorded in Scripture. He lived/preached during the captivity in Babylon, which occurred around 130 years after the exile of the House of Israel. That's quite a bit of time, considering his target audience:
Ezekiel 2:3-10 3:1-4
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.
8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.
9 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;
10 And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.
1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.
2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.
Considering the distinction the entire book [of Ezekiel] continuously makes between the House of Judah and the House of Israel, and that the sign of the restoration (the joining of the two sticks into one) is delivered by Ezekiel (ch. 37)... who exactly is this "son of man"?
Something else to ponder:
Ezekiel 37:18-20
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Who is the "they"? Ezekiel was a priest, his people = House of Judah (including Levites). These ask for the meaning of the sign. Has this happened yet? There are plenty of instructions given to Ezekiel, but has he done them all yet?
***
Jeremiah 23:5-8
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
Jeremiah 31:6-10
6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
***
Off hand, I can think of a couple of relevant places wherein two sticks are joined together to become one unit.
1) Torah. The two rollers that join the Torah scroll together is the Etz Chaim, the tree of life.
2) The cross. Interesting article about the mechanics of a crucifixion here: "Using a T-cross, with a slot-and-tab arrangement at the top, would make it possible for just three men to raise a victim to execution."
John 2:18-21
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
1 Corinthians 1:22-24
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
They would be if they were presented and relevant. Historians frequently miss a lot, do shoddy research, as the one you cite obviously did, and write to their prejudices or to those of their backers. This unfortunate condition is well known.
Well, since you have not provided any contrary facts, I believe a major published historical work takes predecence over your opinions.
Your entire position rests upon the notion that Judah and Israel are already united. Why, then, as Mr. Diego points out, have no prophecies been fulfilled by this "combined" nation? The country called "Israel" has not been a blessing to all nations in any way, shape or form. If Judah and Israel are still separate, then the question remains: where are they, in the numbers they must be to fulfill prophecy, specifically Hosea and Ezekiel?
Go study some prophecy and find out what Dispenstionalists teach regarding Israel.
Start with the Scofield notes.
The Jews are not fulfilling any predicted Old Testament prophecy today because Daniel's 70th week was put on hold until after the removal of the Church (Rom.11).
Today, all 12 tribes are in existance and are known as Jews.
The Old Testament prophecies will be fulfilled when the church is removed and Daniel's 70th week begins, the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer.30:7).
Israel and Judah will be reunited as a Kingdom under Christ, and they will all be the racial seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Today, since they do not know their individual tribes, all Israelites are Jews and all Jews are Israelites.
As both the ISBE and Easton's Bible Dictionary state, 'during the Captivity, and after the Restoration, the name,[Jew] however, was extended to all the Hebrew nation without distinction'
You are trying to make history fit your bad theology, but a false premise must lead to a false conclusion.
To say that God knows everyone that will ever exist isn't the same as saying that the soul actually existed before it received a body.
That is Platonic nonsense by way of Origen.
Actually, there’s a Scripture or 2 that indicates that. I think they are in David’s Psalms &/or Proverbs.
But why should it be surprising? Doesn’t conflict with the rest of Scripture.
But it’s not a biggy, to me, one way or the other.
There are no scriptures that state the preexistance of souls.
God creates the soul with the body, 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
It is important because it leads to all kinds of heresies, transmigration of souls, reincarnation, innate knowledge of the soul etc.
If and when I come across the Scriptures again any time soon, I’ll post them.
I can’t remember the key words well enough to search for them.
I think you are wrong.
I'll spend more time with it later when I can give it the concentration it deserves.
Thank you again........ping
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.