Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.
The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.
Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.
Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!
Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.
All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.
One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.
Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.
One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.
During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?
Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?
Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?
One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.
Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.
In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.
Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.
What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.
Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.
Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?
Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.
Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.
Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.
The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.
am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
What could that be except Satan going after our souls by telling us we will "fly" away in a rapture?
You have a vivid imagination...
Eze 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
Who are these women??? Do you have a clue what this verse is talking about???
I didn't think so...There are numerous things in the bible that have not yet been revealed, just as the Rapture wasn't revealed until a century or two ago...
Who are the women flying in a basket in the book of Zachariah???
You saw the word 'fly' so you imagined Rapture...
Eze 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
There is one verse however that is quite telling:
What religion says we need peace in Israel??? What religion has Sacred writings in 'their' bible that the Jews don't recognize???
Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
Eze 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered mortar:
You misread Paul’s second letter to the Thesselonians if you equate the one who restrains the mystery of lawlessness with Michael as the adversary of Satan.
The one who restrains is taken away, while Michael prevails over Satan and his angels.
Nor is the “man of sin, the son of perdition,” Satan, but Antichrist, who will be a man, (note, *man* of sin, not spirit of sin, not angel of sin, *man* of sin) who seeks to set himself in place of Christ.
If you doubt the Church’s interpretation of St. Paul’s reference to ‘the one who restrains’, consider the difference between the state of the world prior to the abdication of the last Tsar, (and the fall of the Kaiser, the last Western claimant to the old Roman Imperial title) and the state since.
Circa 1900, Europe was full of pious Christians of one type or another, virtues like chastity and self-sacrifice were held in high esteem, Christian piety was stronger in America than since, Christian missionaries were free to preach throughout all areas under American or European influence, which meant the entire globe, save the Ottoman Empire, where the Orthodox, Copts, Jacobites, Armenians, and Nestorians were tolerated minorities, and the already-Christianized Latin America.
Fast forward to the 1920’s and 30’s: the Church in Russia is persecuted, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire leaves in its place in the original Christian heartland, regimes even less tolerant of Christianity, cracks in the embrace of traditional virtues are seen throughout the West, from the flappers to the resolution of the Oxford Union, ‘this house will not fight for King and Country’, evil, anti-Christian ideologies compete for dominance. By the 1950’s atheistic communism, which is most assuredly lawless, has closed of much of the world to Christian preaching. By the turn of the 21st century, only 4% of Western Europe self-identifies as Christian (the number being better in the Christian East, where it never dipped below 40% in Russia, even at the height of the Bolshevik persecution, and stays at 80% in Romania, and over 90% in Greece), abortion is accepted and homoeroticism tolerated or even promoted in nominally Christian societies, and Islam, the original Antichrist (being the first religious movement to create itself in opposition to the Gospel), is once again fighting against Christians (in the Balkans aided by the nominal Christians of the West).
The mystery of lawlessness works, and manifestly so, since the one who restrains has been set aside.
If that happens then there is nothing to worry about. If it doesn't please remember what I said.
He may come "like a thief in the night" to some but not to others. Children of God are not of the "night". Others know when He will arrive. He told us in Mark 13:24-26 when He would come and that is after the tribulation of Satan:
But in those days, after that tribulation the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25)And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Christ comes after Satan. We will not miss the tribulation of Satan but we will not experience the wrath of God either if we did not follow Satan:
Rev.13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads (meaning to fall for his lies or work for his religious organization)
17.And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18.Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (6th trump, 6th vial, 6th seal - when Satan arrives, at 666)
Think about it...Satan's going to sit on the throne and call himself God...Is he going to preach about a rapture that he can't pull off, or is he going to say there is no rapture??? But to sit tight and worship him...
He doesn't have to "pull it off". What he wants to do is make you follow him, worship him instead of Christ. What if he sits there and asks you to gather everyone you know and bring them to him so he can save them too? That would be the reason for Luke 12:
53. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter.......
No one can follow Satan into a rapture...Preparing for the Rapture will prepare us to be better Christians...There's nothing Satanic about it...
If you are wrong and there is no rapture will you be prepared?
"Women" was added and not in the manuscripts. What the verse is talking about is that "pillows", or coverings, are being sewn to hide the saving hands of God by false preachers (19) who "slay souls" by lying to His people for money. What is that lie? To make them "fly to save their soul." (22)They promise life, by being raptured. These people are good people, love God, go to church every Sunday but they are trusting their preacher with their soul. He will not be standing with anyone when they face God. There will be no excuse for following Satan.
Who are the women flying in a basket in the book of Zachariah???
Please give me the chapter and verse number. While I was quickly scanning for it I came across this and it pertains to rapture:
Zech.13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. (9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My People: and they shall say The Lord is my God
He is telling us that we will be here, we will go through the tribulation but we will be fine - We are His people.
You saw the word 'fly' so you imagined Rapture...
What do you think it means?
I'm not certain what you mean Iscool.
I believe it means the same thing. We are speaking of the time when that "man of sin" is revealed and that is the same as Satan being kicked out of heaven by Michael. They are one and the same.
Nor is the “man of sin, the son of perdition,” Satan, but Antichrist, who will be a man, (note, *man* of sin, not spirit of sin, not angel of sin, *man* of sin) who seeks to set himself in place of Christ.
The anti-christ is a role Satan plays. He is the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition". He is referred to as man, not spirit, in other places as well.
Rev.13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
You have a wonderful knowledge of church history. Thank you for teaching that but I still believe it is Michael, not the church, that holds Satan until the right time and I don't think that will be much longer.
I will agree with your closing remark on living your life as though He is coming tomorrow. That is always good practice. However, surviving tribulations and being taken completely away from them are two different things. We prepare by following the Lord’s admonitions and listening to His messages to us, through promptings of the Holy Spirit and through His Church leaders. We through repentance keep ourselves free from sin as much as possible and willing to listen to and obey spiritual promptings on whatever He sends us. We prepare by keeping ourselves free from onerous debt, maintaining an emergency food supply, being always ready to flee if we are so prompted.
Some of what you read in Luke 21 did indeed happen long ago. But not all of it. You read a lot more detail into Luke than do I: Two-thirds to perish, children shot and stabbed, etc. etc. The times will not be pretty but I find no promise that the Lord will remove us entirely from this situation, only make it possible to survive if We are in tune with His Spirit.
We are to do everything in our power to preserve as many of His children from ultimate destruction, meaning we evangelize and fight against evil as much as possible. We don’t sit and celebrate that the party bus will come get us before things get hot. If you rely too much on a pre-tribulation rapture, then I think you cripple yourself to respond properly if it doesn’t happen. Beware if rewriting the script since you aren’t the Author or Director.
That’s beware “of” rewriting the script, not “if” rewriting. Sheesh. The heat is getting to me.
I never said she (Rahab) was unwelcome to the lineage of Our Lord because she was a harlot. What I said was this: [Deuteronomy 7:1-4] When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. Rahab was a Canaanite.
The reason I mentioned harlot was to differentiate Rahab from Rachab of [Matthew 1:5]....the mother of Boaz. They have differently spelled names and Rachab is not given the "Harlot" adjective like all scriptures dealing with Rahab......both Old and New Testament.
Now The Kingdom of Moab was not mentioned in the above command from The Lord because they did not enter The Kingdom of Moab [Deuteronomy 2:8-9] And when we passed by from our brethren the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, through the way of the plain from Elath, and from Eziongaber, we turned and passed by the way of the wilderness of Moab. And the LORD said unto me, Distress not the Moabites, neither contend with them in battle: for I will not give thee of their land for a possession; because I have given Ar unto the children of Lot for a possession.
The part of Moab that became "Israelite Moab" had been taken from the Moabites previously by the Amorites [Deuteronomy 2:24][Numbers 21:23-26] and indeed Moses is here speaking to the Israelites on "The Plains of Moab" [Numbers 35:1-2][Numbers 33:48-50]....now belonging to Israel....and the eventual birthplace and home of Ruth.
And, of course....another reason Ruth was not of The Kingdom of Moab was [Deuteronomy 23:3] An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever.
Thanks for the ping back to this thread.
I thought it had died down weeks ago.
IF there is no pre-tribulation rapture, then your concerns are not to be dismissed.
IF the pre-trib rapture is a false teaching, Where are our Lord's instructions for those that love Him? Where can I read about what preparations I/we need to make to endure these horrible events? {I can use the "Being prepared" and "Taking heed that no one deceives us" arguments to fit the pre-trib scenario also.}
The last time God was directly involved in world wide destruction, He gave some detailed and specific instructions to Noah. He even told Noah how big to make the ark, how many animals to prepare for, food, etc. Where are my instructions? Am I to stockpile food? {mass starvation is in the forecast} Should I build a bomb shelter?
Noah was given specific instructions because he really did have to endure great judgment. Enoch, on the other hand, did not. Another of the many "hints"?...I think so.
Seven
Well....how about this then:
[Joshua 2:1-3] And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there. And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, Behold, there came men in hither to night of the children of Israel to search out the country. And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country.
[Joshua 6:17] And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
[Joshua 6:23-25] And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD. And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.
[Hebrews 11:31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
[James 2:25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
You see....The Holy Spirit inspired the writers of both the Old and New Testaments to make sure there would be no misunderstanding by including the descriptive adjective, harlot....with every reference to Rahab in both books.
[Matthew 1:5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse.
When The Holy Spirit inspired Matthew to include the name of the mother of Boaz there was no reference to her being a harlot.....because this was not the same woman. As far as Boaz's name being spelled differently it's just a simple result of pronunciation in the Hebrew to the Greek. Besides....the names of Salmon and Obed "bookend" the name of "Booz" to insure we know just who he is.....like it does in other genealogies in earlier books. Rachab, in addition, has a much different pronunciation from Rahab than Boaz has from Booz.
[Joshua 6:25] It here states that Rahab was given land in the midst of Israel in consideration for her efforts in hiding the spies.....and that's it! Josephus, in his "Antiquities of The Jews", Book 5, Chapter 1, sections 2 and 7 says the same thing. Neither book mentions any marriage taking place between Salmon and Rahab.
The silence is deafening!
Thanks for the ping!
I can't imagine anyone being prepared to live thru the Tribulation...
He is telling us that we will be here, we will go through the tribulation but we will be fine - We are His people.
I disagree...These are the Jews...God's chosen people from the beginning who rejected Jesus at His first coming...
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
God is not done with Israel...
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
This goes for the promise to the Jews as well as the gift to the Gentile Christians...
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It will be the Jew's time during the Tribulation (as well as anyone else that will take up the cross of Jesus)...
The church is gone...The church, the espoused Bride is at the Wedding Ceremony in Heaven...
You saw the word 'fly' so you imagined Rapture...
What do you think it means?
I don't have a clue...
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
There may not be a true Trinity as with God, but there are three...
The false prophet who is alive and well today leading people to the coming Anti-Christ who has not yet been revealed...And Satan, that ole' serpent that beguiled Eve...
I assume then you do not take Revelation literally...It's not going to 'not be pretty', it's going to be a castrophe of the likes that the world has never seen (or even imagined)...Many Christians will be murdered for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast or refusing to worship the Anti-Christ...
As I understand the book of Revelation, the church is in Heaven during the Tribulation getting married...
I’m preparing to weather the bad times until the Savior comes, if the Savior so permits me to linger even that long. (There are worse things than dying for your faith, by the way.) If I am wrong, and get raptured as you say before anything happens, what have I lost? If I am right, and you are wrong and have to get along during the tribulation, you have lost an opportunity to prepare yourself for it spiritually and physically. I take spare tires on my journeys though I’ve never had to do it. Better safe than sorry. So if your belief in the pre-tribulation rapture causes you to neglect preparation, that is your business. I will prepare for the worse and trust in the Lord to assist me to get through it with as many of my neighbors as I can help save with me. I’ll even try to help you if you need it. I guess only the future will tell which of us is right.
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