Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.
The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.
Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.
Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!
Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.
All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.
One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.
Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.
One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.
During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?
Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?
Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?
One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.
Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.
In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.
Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.
What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.
Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.
Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?
Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.
Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.
Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.
The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.
Of course He knows where ALL of His chosen are, ALL of the 12 tribes, all of the house of Israel and house of Judah - do you? Do you know, if not then they are missing to you as well as most of mankind. How many know their ancestry back past 3 or 4 generations?
And why should I care if I do not know what tribe a Jew is from-as long as God does!
[ Now, Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, thus, associated with the Southern tribe of Judah, yet calls himself an Israelite (Rom.11:1).]
All 12 tribes are of Jacob, and his name was changed to Israel. So all 12 tribes are considered Israelites but the "Jews" are of the tribe of Judah. There is a difference in the two houses and that difference remains today. They will be brought together again but that hasn't happened yet. (Ez.37:16-22)
There is a difference only in that we do not know what tribe each individual belongs to now
So, the other tribes have fallen under the title of 'Jew', but they still exist and will be revealed when the Lord returns.
That is why James writes to the '12 tribes', they still exist.
Yes, the tribes will be rejoined officially, since they will be reunited as a Kingdom again and that is what the emphasis is on, the return of the Davidic Kingdom under the Son of David (Rev.5:5).
[ Jews can be of any tribe today, not just Judah and Benjamin, it is an common term now for the entire race. ]
It is common but it is incorrect. Aren't you glad that you now know the truth.
No, it is correct, since Paul stated that he was both.
So now you know the truth.
A Jew can be of any tribe, and an Israelite can be of the tribe of Judah and Benjamin.
Anna, from the tribe of Asar, could be called a Jew as well.
[ So being pro-Jewish means you are pro-Israelite-all 12 tribes. ]
That is what some believe but we know that all 12 tribes are not brought together until the millennium. Even then you must notice something about the tribes. In Rev.7: the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned. They are left out because of idolatry. In Ezekiel 48 they are again part of the other tribes.
That is very true, but again the issue of bringing them together at the Millennial reign is to signify that the Jewish nation has become united again.
Now, the three groups of people are stated to be 'Jew, Gentile and Church' and that word "Jew' stands for all of the 12 tribes, not just Judah.
It isn't irrelevant to me at all nor do I think it is heretical. I do believe the tribes eventually settled in England then to America but that is my belief. You are welcome to yours.
Well thank you!
Thank you also for finally revealing that you are defending 'British Israelitism',.
The British and Americans are Gentiles, not Israelites.
The Jews, all 12 tribes, are mixed among themselves, they have not become another race (Saxon).
[ The word 'Jew' originally meant only the Southern tribes, but has expanded to mean all tribes. ]
To many it has - they are wrong.
No, it is you who are wrong, the Gentiles are still Gentiles and the British and Americans have nothing to do with the 'lost' tribes of Israel.
[ The tribes are not lost, they are concealed among the Jews and God will reveal what each tribe each 'Jew' belongs to during the Tribulation and Millennial reign ]
What you believe disagrees with what God tells us. It is your choice.
No, what is revealed by God's word is that the 12 tribes are revealed in the Millennial reign and they are not Saxons!
I know that is what you believe but that is not what scripture tells us.
His 'wife' are all of those who are part of His Body and that consists of all who have died in Christ since Pentacost and those who will be raptured who are in Christ and not die.
Again, I know that is your belief but scripture, in no place, tells us that.
They will be judged at the Judgement seat of Christ to receive rewards and crowns
Yes, all will be judged. Some will receive rewards.
Paul talks about the Rapture in 1Thess.4 and 1Cor.15.
Paul isn't talking about a rapture. The subject of 1Thess.4 is where the dead are, which is picked up in verse 13:
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The next few verses, that the rapture doctrine was taken from, is not about anyone flying away but rather Paul is telling us that those that have died before us will come back with Him to meet us. That is at His 2nd Advent.
There will NOT be a rapture, or taking away, of any kind, nor will we be changed into our spirit bodies until AFTER the tribulation of Satan, as Paul tells us:
11 Thess.2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Paul also tells us about that "mystery" of our bodies changing but in no place does he say it will be before the return of Christ at His 2nd Advent, rather he stipulates that it will be at the 2nd Advent. He does not mention any type of rapture:
1 Corin.15:51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52)In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Well, since the Church are saints (Phil.1:1)and being part of the family of God (Eph.3:15) they are with Christ when He returns to claim His Jewish Kingdom
We know that His church is His family but nowhere in either of the verses does it tell us they are with Him when He returns to claim His Kingdom. Those that have died before us will be with Him and we will meet them when we are changed into our spirit bodies.
No, the Jews (12 tribes of Israel), who are also God's people and they are going to go through the Tribulation as judgement......They will then be converted when they see Him (Jer.31:31, Zech 12:10)....The only place the Christian comes into contact with fire is at the Judgement seat of Christ where his works are tested by fire, but he saved through it.
The Jews are the tribe of Judah and are one of the 12 tribes of Israel. All of us will go through the tribulation (there are two). Everyone will not be converted but:
Rom.14:11 For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
The only place the Christian comes into contact with fire is at the Judgement seat of Christ where his works are tested by fire, but he saved through it.
If we do not fall for Satan's lies and follow him, believing him to be Jesus then we remain children of God. God loves His children and will not harm us. The stipulation is to stay true to Jesus through the tribulation of Satan.
Nope....you're wrong again. Here is the Hebrew word from the first place in the Bible the term (Jew) is used: [II Kings 16:6] Strong's #3064. Yhuwdiy (yeh-hoo-dee')a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah).....and the verse itself: At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day. By the way....in this passage the Jews are at war against Israel and scripture delineates the two.
And here is the Hebrew word from [2 Samuel 17:25] where the term Israelite is used: Strong's #3481. Yisr'eliy (yis-reh-ay-lee')a Jisreelite or descendant of Jisrael (Israel).....and the verse itself: and Amasa hath Absalom set instead of Joab over the host, and Amasa [is] a man's son whose name is Ithra the Israelite who hath gone in unto Abigail, daughter of Nahash, sister of Zeruiah, mother of Joab.
Now....my good friend....I have read many of your posts for a long time and understand that you are a Godly person. But, when you continue insisting that all of the Tribes of Israel were called Jews in scripture, after having your error pointed out time and time again, I wonder.... what is your motive? Are you just trying to be contrary, or do you actually not believe the scriptures shown you?
The terms are only interchangeable if you happen to be Jewish. Since the tribes of Benjamin and most of Levi and some of the others immigrated to Judah....they also became known as Jews. They were already Israelites, as was Judah....so that part of their national heritage did not change.
My grandparents immigrated to this country from Norway and they became known as "Norwegian Americans". They still had brothers and sisters living in Norway and according to your reasoning all these folks back in the "home country" should now be called Americans also. Do you see how silly your position really is? When people change nationalities they still retain their heritage, but that doesn't mean all their cousins, brothers, friends and acquaintances back home take on the name of their new country also.
The Apostle Paul was indeed an Israelite also: [Romans 11:1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. He also calls himself a Jew, but notice the Greek definition used in scripture: Strong's #2453. Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos)as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah. "Belonging to the country of Judea". Strictly speaking....he was a Jew because his ancestors migrated to Judah, and like my grandparents, took on the appellation of their adopted country. The scripture that the definition was taken from is [Acts 22:3] I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Now, I have given you all the necessary information for you to finally come to the scriptural reality that evidently escapes you. If you desire to continue this debate I would request that you provide scripture that shows everyone that the tribes remaining in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, (Ephraim, Mannessah, Rueben, Simeon, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, and Naphtali) were ever called Jews in the Bible. I have a feeling that you will be unsuccessful so I won't even wish you good luck. If your theology is instructing you to maintain this error....maybe you should take another look at it.
By the way....Galatians 2:15 has the same definition in the Greek: Strong's #2453. Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos)as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah Belonging to....or a citizen of Judea. He and Peter both were citizens of Judea. The Israelites that Peter describes in [1 Peter 1:1-2] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. were not citizens of Judea and the word "Scattered" is translated from the Greek as: Strong's #1290. diaspora (dee-as-por-ah')dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries. I wonder why the Holy Spirit didn't just have Peter call them a bunch of Jews?
"You are welcome to yours"......Well thank you!
I apologize. I shouldn't have said that.
Thank you also for finally revealing that you are defending 'British Israelitism',.....The British and Americans are Gentiles, not Israelites.
I don't mean to be defending British Israelism as I haven't studied it thoroughly. I do believe some of the "lost" tribes migrated to England and then to America. Actually, it would be amazing if they didn't. I do think that was all part of God's plan. There are many Biblical references that certainly sound like America.
As far as I know, whether you do or do not believe any of the 12 tribes information, has nothing to do with your love of Christ or your salvation. It is just very interesting and knowing these pieces of history opens scripture so much.
The questions, or statments you made in the rest of this post, have been answered by Diego.
Correction - I think it’s E.F. Hutton (not E.R.) - shows you what I know about stocks and making money.
First, thank you for the apology, but it was not necessary.
I know these discussions can get heated at times and I do not take them personally.
Second, what you are defending simply is untrue.
The 12 tribes are all Jewish and remain among the Jews.
We just combine them under one title.
Most Jews do not know individually which of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, the Levites and Asar they belong to and yet they did know in the New Testament.
So, it would seem that even that knowledge of individual tribes has also been largely lost.
You cannot say all Jews are of the tribe of Judah, since at least 4 others were mentioned in the New Testament by name, so we know that they were considered Jewish as well.
Although I do hear that Israel is making attempts to find out who the Levites are to handle the rebuilt temple in the future.
Deut 29:29 states the secret things belong unto the Lord our God...No other 'race' has become Israel, they must be the seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and even we do not know where they are today, God does and they are Jewish, not Gentile.
No, according to sound reasoning you remain Norwegian since that is your racial background.
My racial background is Irish-German, so if I want to trace my race I follow those blood lines, not the nations they lived in.
Thus, a racial Jew, any of the 12 tribes, remain exactly that racially and those 'blood' lines can be traced right back to Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
The tribe of Asar was mentioned by name in the Book of Luke, back in the land, so she would be considered a Jew along with all of those other Jews who returned with Ezra.
So that means you are down to only 8 tribes that are not mentioned as being specifically 'Jews'.
But once again, since those same tribes are part of the Millennial inheritance, with the other 4 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi and Asar, your assertions about any relevancy to the fact that they are not mentioned is simply nonsense.
You have yet to show any importance to this 'great' fact.
Why should Peter call them Jews, when if they have been saved, they are now Christians?
Moreover, James, writing before anything was known about the Church age, did write to the 12 tribes that were scattered abroad, so he clearly believed that all 12 tribes were still in existence, no matter what term was being used for them, Jew or Israelite, both were interchangeable.
Unger writes in his Bible Dictionary,
Jews became the appellation for the whole nation.... The original designation of the Israelitish people was the Hebrews, as the descendent's of Abraham. Thus Paul was called appropriately a Hebrew and still later the terms Hebrew and Jew were applied with little distinction. (P.588)
It is true FTD and I think deep down you know it is. People do combine them under one title but you know that is incorrect. You have the knowledge now to bring truth to others. That, as everything in life, is your choice.
So, it would seem that even that knowledge of individual tribes has also been largely lost.
Yes, it has to most Christians. We must ask ourselves, why did God give us that information in so many places in the Bible if He didn't want us to know and understand it?
Although I do hear that Israel is making attempts to find out who the Levites are to handle the rebuilt temple in the future.
According to God's Word, there will not be another temple in this age so the "Nation" of Israel appears to be wasting their time.
Deut 29:29 states the secret things belong unto the Lord our God...No other 'race' has become Israel, they must be the seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and even we do not know where they are today, God does and they are Jewish, not Gentile.
You didn't complete Deut.29:29:
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things whioh are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Knowledge of the 12 tribes are plainly revealed to us. It's just that it is not taught in our churches and I don't know why that is. You are correct when you say, "No other race has become Israel", and that they are the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel). They are not gentile nor are they all Jews, (tribe of Judah).
The reason Peter did not call them Jews was because they were not Jewish.....they were Israelites. You can continue to ignore the Biblical references I have posted until the cows come home. All it does is cause other folks to wonder why you don't admit you're wrong. The lurkers can see it; Ping-Pong sees it; You do too....but I know it must be difficult for you to admit your error.
I have friends who are Jewish. They also believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice for them. They call themselves Jews....they are Christians by faith.
Unger writes in his Bible Dictionary: Jews became the appellation for the whole nation...
Mr. Unger is correct in the fact that this belief is common. Mr. Unger is incorrect if he believes it also! As all who read these postings know by now....except you evidently....Jacob had twelve sons who became known as the Nation of Israel. Each son was the progenitor of a different tribe. Judah was the progenitor of the "Jews". Dan was the progenitor of the "Danites". Ephraim was the progenitor of the.......you get my drift.
I really don't understand why people insist upon calling the Nation of Israel Jewish. It must be some type of a hatred syndrome for the Jews rejecting our Lord. Since the Children of Israel were brothers, folks must take the attitude...."Birds of a feather..flock together". Some self righteous people look down their noses at anything "Jewish" and this evidently allows them to broaden their hatred....I guess.
The original designation of the Israelitish people was the Hebrews, as the descendent's of Abraham.
You probably ought to take another look at this one too. The term "Hebrew" does not come from Abraham....it comes from "Eber" about seven up line from Abraham. It would appear from scripture [Luke 3:34-35] that Abraham had thousands of Hebrew cousins...even before he was born! Mr. Unger needs to go back to cemetery.....I mean seminary.
James, writing before anything was known about the Church age, did write to the 12 tribes that were scattered abroad.
Strong's #1290. diaspora (dee-as-por-ah')dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries(which are) scattered (abroad). James refers to these folks as did Peter. He calls them Israelites....not Jews. James was a Jew....the flesh and blood brother of Our Saviour....a descendant from Judah (Jew), a descendant from Jacob (Israelite), a descendant from Eber (Hebrew) and a descendant from Shem (Semite). James knew the distinction of the heritage of Children of Israel and this is why he does not call them Jewish!
You are digging your hole very deep. If you want a hand climbing out......all you have to do is ask.
You know....I just have to ask. Maybe I am being too hard on you. Maybe you really cannot understand...and this is why we are having this contention.
If I was writing a book and I mentioned that some German-Irish folks had moved to the United States and took up residency, becoming citizens....would you then call all the inhabitants of "Berlin and Dublin", Americans?????
The answer you provide to this simple question will enlighten most of us.....I'm sure.
The tribe of Asar was mentioned by name in the Book of Luke.
No......"Anna" of the tribe of Asher was mentioned in the Book of Luke. The rest of the tribe of Asher was somewhere else. Maybe they had immigrated to Germany.....or Ireland?
You know....I just have to ask. Maybe I am being too hard on you. Maybe you really cannot understand...and this is why we are having this contention. If I was writing a book and I mentioned that some German-Irish folks had moved to the United States and took up residency, becoming citizens....would you then call all the inhabitants of "Berlin and Dublin", Americans????? The answer you provide to this simple question will enlighten most of us.....I'm sure.
And you really that obtuse?
The 12 tribes compose a race, as well as a nation.
You are either of a Gentile race or the Jewish race (all 12 tribes.)
All Gentiles can trace their personal racial lineage to either Shem (Oriental), Ham(Black) and Japheth (Caucasian).
The Jewish race comes from the line of Shem and it starts with Abraham.
This idea that any other race other then a Shemite can be the 12 tribes is plain nonsense on your part.
[ The tribe of Asar was mentioned by name in the Book of Luke.]
No......"Anna" of the tribe of Asher was mentioned in the Book of Luke. The rest of the tribe of Asher was somewhere else. Maybe they had immigrated to Germany.....or Ireland?
No, if Anna of the tribe of Asar is mentioned she had to have come back to the land with Ezra from the Babylonian captivity so the tribe of Asar must have been represented in that captivity as well as the other 11 tribes (not just Judah and Benjamin).
Can a Etphiopian change his skin? (Jer.13:23), well the line of Abraham, Issac and Jacob cannot change their racial line.
Just as every Etphiopian can trace his line back to Ham, so every racial Jew will trace his line back to Abraham and Issac.
No one in the line of Japheth (Irish, Germans, Italians, English etc) are in that racial line.
Now, Jews have been found in all nations, mixed with all races, since they are dispersed, but they have not changed their racial makeup.
They have not become any other people and I believe DNA tests can identify who is of Jewish ancestry and who isn't.
They just cannot identify the particular tribe.
Any Jew today can be of any of the 12 tribes, not just Judah.
And what happened to those Northern tribes that were conquered by Assyria and dispersed is not relevant to anything of significance.
The reason Peter did not call them Jews was because they were not Jewish.....they were Israelites. You can continue to ignore the Biblical references I have posted until the cows come home. All it does is cause other folks to wonder why you don't admit you're wrong. The lurkers can see it; Ping-Pong sees it; You do too....but I know it must be difficult for you to admit your error.
What you are posting is simple nonsense.
Peter was not writing to the Jews, as did James, who did write to the 12 tribes.
Peter was writing to Christians Gentiles, exactly how Paul uses the word in Eph. 2:12, referring to saved Gentiles, not Jews.
I have friends who are Jewish. They also believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice for them. They call themselves Jews....they are Christians by faith.
Yes, racially they remain Jews, but spiritually they are no longer considered Jews by God they are Christians. (Ga.3:28, 1Cor.10:32)
Thus, they will not receive the promises of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, but those of the Church.
[ Unger writes in his Bible Dictionary: Jews became the appellation for the whole nation...
Mr. Unger is correct in the fact that this belief is common. Mr. Unger is incorrect if he believes it also! As all who read these postings know by now....except you evidently....Jacob had twelve sons who became known as the Nation of Israel. Each son was the progenitor of a different tribe. Judah was the progenitor of the "Jews". Dan was the progenitor of the "Danites". Ephraim was the progenitor of the.......you get my drift.
Yes, and those races still exist and Jews today are composed of Danites and Ephramites, as they receive their inheritance in the Millennial reign (Ezek.48).
No other race is getting those promises and they are all Jews, including the Benjamites and Levites
I really don't understand why people insist upon calling the Nation of Israel Jewish. It must be some type of a hatred syndrome for the Jews rejecting our Lord. Since the Children of Israel were brothers, folks must take the attitude...."Birds of a feather..flock together". Some self righteous people look down their noses at anything "Jewish" and this evidently allows them to broaden their hatred....I guess.
I call the nation of Israel Jewish because that is what they are.
And it is clear that your view that because one views all of the 12 tribes as Jewish that is some type of hatred for them is about as loony as you can get.
Premillennial believers are always pro-Jewish since they know that God is not done with the Nation of Israel and the Jews (Rom.11).
[ The original designation of the Israelitish people was the Hebrews, as the descendent's of Abraham. ]
You probably ought to take another look at this one too. The term "Hebrew" does not come from Abraham....it comes from "Eber" about seven up line from Abraham. It would appear from scripture [Luke 3:34-35] that Abraham had thousands of Hebrew cousins...even before he was born! Mr. Unger needs to go back to cemetery.....I mean seminary.
My, how clever!
And you have to learn how to read an English sentence!
Unger didn't say that the Hebrew race began with Abraham, he stated the original designation of the Jewish people as descendent's of Abraham was that of being Hebrew.
So, we have at least identified your problem, basic reading of English.
James, writing before anything was known about the Church age, did write to the 12 tribes that were scattered abroad. Strong's #1290. diaspora (dee-as-por-ah')dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries(which are) scattered (abroad). James refers to these folks as did Peter. He calls them Israelites....not Jews. James was a Jew....the flesh and blood brother of Our Saviour....a descendant from Judah (Jew), a descendant from Jacob (Israelite), a descendant from Eber (Hebrew) and a descendant from Shem (Semite). James knew the distinction of the heritage of Children of Israel and this is why he does not call them Jewish! ]
James calls them the 12 tribes and doesn't call them either Israelites or Jews.
The 12 dispersed tribes would include all of the tribes.
James did know the distinction of Jew and Gentiles and that is why he addressed his letter to his brethren of the 12 tribes.
Running to Strongs to change the translation doesn't change the fact of who James actually wrote to-12 tribes.
So your idiotic theory falls flat on its face.
You are digging your hole very deep. If you want a hand climbing out......all you have to do is ask.
No, the only one who needs a hand is you who can't seem to read simple English.
It is true FTD and I think deep down you know it is. People do combine them under one title but you know that is incorrect. You have the knowledge now to bring truth to others. That, as everything in life, is your choice.
What I know is true is that Jews compose members from all 12 tribes of Israel.
[ So, it would seem that even that knowledge of individual tribes has also been largely lost. ]
Yes, it has to most Christians. We must ask ourselves, why did God give us that information in so many places in the Bible if He didn't want us to know and understand it?
The information that you think you understand, you don't.
[ Although I do hear that Israel is making attempts to find out who the Levites are to handle the rebuilt temple in the future. ]
According to God's Word, there will not be another temple in this age so the "Nation" of Israel appears to be wasting their time.
But there will another Temple before Ezekials Temple, the one the anti-Christ will sit in (2Thess.2) proclaiming himeself to be god.
[ Deut 29:29 states the secret things belong unto the Lord our God...No other 'race' has become Israel, they must be the seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and even we do not know where they are today, God does and they are Jewish, not Gentile. ]
You didn't complete Deut.29:29: The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things whioh are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Yes I didn't complete it because God has not revealed the individual identity of the 12 tribes to us today, except under the general term of 'Jew'
But you have revealed yourself as not understanding basic Bible truths, like the anti-Christ setting up his throne in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem during the last part of the Tribulation.
Knowledge of the 12 tribes are plainly revealed to us. It's just that it is not taught in our churches and I don't know why that is. You are correct when you say, "No other race has become Israel", and that they are the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel). They are not gentile nor are they all Jews, (tribe of Judah).
And who are these 12 tribes which you seem to take great pains in avoiding in naming?
And what particular religion are you and your partner Diego?
I would from where this source of confusion and doctrinal error stems from.
British-Israelism (Anglo-Israelism) is the belief and teaching of a number of religious groups, that the 10 “lost” tribes of Israel are actually the Anglo-Saxon race and are specifically the people of Great Britain. By definition, then, the Anglo-Saxon (or white) people are the true Israelites, being the descendants of Abraham and are the only chosen people of God and heirs to the covenant of God. The people who are living in Israel today, calling themselves Jews, are actually impostors who mistakenly identify themselves with the Israelites, but are, in fact, descendants of Judah and are not the chosen people of God and are not part of the covenant of God..
The teachings regarding British-Israelism, are nothing new, having been around for several centuries. This doctrine was re-packaged and popularized in the twentieth century by Herbert W. Armstrong as Armstrongism and was a main element of doctrine in his World Wide Church of God. His son, Garner Ted Armstrong, continued the teaching until his death in 2003.
This belief and teaching is popular in many circles, religious and otherwise. It provides a convenient foundation for the justification of attacks on the current Jewish people and the anti-Semitism that is found in the world today. By joining themselves to the teaching and belief, people claim that they are not anti-Semitic because the real Jews are Anglo-Saxons and therefore they, themselves, are the true Semites. Their attacks on the Jewish people of today are, therefore, exposing the fraud and deception that is inherent in the modern Jewish claim that they are Israelites.
British-Israelites claim that the daughter of king Zedekiah, the last king of Judah, went to Europe and established the throne of David in Ireland. Jeremiah 43:4-7 is used as proof of their claim. The Stone of Scone, which has been used as a coronation stone for the British monarchy for centuries, is claimed to be the stone used in the coronation of king David and the “pillow” that Jacob used when he saw his visions.
Among the arguments used to support their beliefs are linguistic claims. Since the tribe of Dan supposedly migrated cross Europe on its way to the British Isles, the following names are linked to origins in that tribal name: London (LonDAN), Danube (DANube), Danzig (DANzig), Dneiper (DANeiper), Dneister (DANeister), Donegal (DANegal), Dardanelles (DarDANelles), Sweden (SweDAN), and Denmark (DANmark). Why other tribes have not left similar marks is not explained. They also claim that by removing the letter “I” from the Jewish name Isaac, they derive the word saac, which combined with the son produces the word saacson, which is equated with the Saxson, meaning Anglo-Saxon or British.
In another argument, it is noted that Berith is the Hebrew word for covenant, and Ish is the Hebrew word for man. By combining the two words, the word Berith-ish (Covenant Man) is formed , providing the basis for the word British.
“They adopted, in place of the name of Almighty God, the names of Baal! The name of Baal was virtually plastered all over ancient maps of Palestine. We read in the Bible of places named “Baal-peor,” and “Baal-zephon”; and remember that even some individuals were named after this false god, such as “Baalam” (which merely means the plural “many Baals”). Now, notice this incredible list of the names of Baal found in Ireland! Baal-y-Bai, Baal-y-Gowan, Baal-y-Nahinsh, Baal-y-Castle, Baaly-Moni, Baal-y-Ner, Baal-y- Garai, Baal-y-Nah, Baal-y-Con-el, Baal-y-Hy, Baal-y-Hull-Ish, Baal-Nah-Brach, Baal-Athi, Baal- Dagon.
Howlett, a pastor in the 19th century in that region, says, “These certainly are memorials of the Baal worship once prevailing in Ireland. In them we have not only the name of Baal but its conjunction also with other Hebrew names. How can this be accounted for, except as they were so called by immigrants from Phoenicia and Palestine?”
Copyright © Garner Ted Armstrong Evangelistic Organization
In other claims, an argument is presented that Abraham’s name was to be called “Great” (Genesis 12:2). Therefore, that is how the name Great Britain (Great Covenant Man) came about.
In Isaiah 66:19 there is a term “Tarshish” which means “white border”. The argument is made that the verse refers to the White Cliffs of Dover.
The entire concept of British-Israelism is truly anti-Biblical. The proponents use Biblical verses in an attempt to back their ideas, but in the process totally ignore what has been said before and after the verses they use. The Bible is used as an attempt to give credibility to ideas that have no basis in the Scriptures.
The apologists for the belief twist and misuse historical events in a manner that distort the reality of events and confuse the uninitiated. The words and theories may sound important to those who do not know better, but the reality of what is being said is nonsense.
The attempt to use Jeremiah 43:4-7 as a proof text for their claim that the 10 tribes travelled to Ireland is ludicrous. The main force of the belief is that the daughter of Zedekiah, princess Tea-Tephi, was accompanied by the prophet Jeremiah to Ireland where she just happened to marry the king of Ireland, who also happened to be a descendant of Judah like herself. It was there that the two established the continuing throne of king David, fulfilling the prophecies in the Old Testament of the Bible. The story is contrived and false.
The “proofs” presented in the linguistic claims of place names that contain the word, or variation, or DAN is totally ludicrous. There is no correlation between the Hebrew and English alphabets that would allow such a comparison to be made. If these comparison are allowed, then the Israelites must have also gone east and visited Vietnam where they named the cities of, Danang, Don Duong and others.
The “proofs” presented in the linguistic claims of words being the same in Hebrew as in English are also ludicrous. It has been noted that dropping the “I” from the name of Isaac results in the world saac which is equated with Sax-son. The rational for doing such a thing is that in the Hebrew language, vowels are not written. If that criteria is used, then Isaac should become sc, as the a’s should also be dropped. In that case the word becomes nonsense. The same should be done with the word “son”, becoming sn. Thus the term formed is sc sn, which is gibberish. Which vowels should be placed back, in order to make sense out of the word?
Since the apologists replaced the “c” in Isaac with an “x”, without any just reason, perhaps there are other terms that can be made out of the two sets of consonants:
Using an “x” - sc becomes: sax, sex, six, sox
Using the vowels, “sn” becomes: san, sane, sin, sine, son, sun
There is no context in which that can be done in the English language. English is not Hebrew and there is no correlation between the alphabets and the words.
However, there is a greater problem. The name Isaac is a Latin word, or form, of the Hebrew name Yitschak. Isaac is not even a proper Hebrew name, so the linguistic exercise becomes even more ridiculous. The attempt to make the word Saxon out of the name Yitschak becomes impossible.
The same contrivances are used in the “Berith” “Ish” combination to form the word British. The letters used are from the English alphabet to form an English word. If one uses the Hebrew alphabet, then the combination again becomes nonsense. Only the sounds bear a resemblance.
The reference to the origin of the name “Great Britain” and the alleged reference to Tarshish meaning the White Cliffs of Dover are ludicrous at the very best. The reference in Isaiah 66 is to the Millennial kingdom and the new earth, not the migration of Jews to England. By using the reference, the British-Israelite apologists reveal that they wish to change the revelation of history by God in order to fit their own theology. The reality is that the claim is an absolute falsehood, devised to appear theological and academic. It is neither.
What the British-Israelite apologists did was to formulate a theory and a doctrine, then attempt to find support in the Bible and in the historical record. In the absence of solid support, suppositions and postulations were substituted and cited as support. This is typical of false doctrine and false prophets.
In order to make the theory plausible, the apologists had to twist Biblical verses to suit their purposes, rewrite the history of God’s covenant people, the Jews, as recorded in the Bible, redefine the Covenant of God with His people, redefine salvation and what it means, and redefine the record of who Jesus Christ was and claimed to be as recorded in the Bible.
The most damaging evidence against the teaching, is found in the life and teaching of Jesus Christ. Apparently He believed that he had come to the real Jewish people and claimed to be their Messiah and king. Is Jesus Christ presumed to be deluded or a liar? British Israelites create their own god and their own way of salvation and have deluded themselves into thinking they are safe from the judgment of the real God against their false system of belief.
British-Israelism is the old “white supremacy” belief that was placed in a religious package in order to give it a respectable appearance. Fortunately, the Bible does not support the doctrine and the attempts of the apologists to appeal to the Scriptures for their support reveal their true identity; not as Israelites, but as FALSE PROPHETS who deny the person and teaching of Jesus Christ.
http://www.ondoctrine.com/10brtish.htm
Since you stated that your background was Norwegian, you may be really from the tribe of Naphtali!
http://britam.org/naphtali.html
The 12 tribes compose a race, as well as a nation.You are either of a Gentile race or the Jewish race (all 12 tribes.)
I asked you in post #204 to provide me with scripture showing that the Tribes of the North were ever call Jews. I see you have still not done this so we can probably assume that you cannot find it. This point will be awarded to me.
I have given you Biblical proof that the folks in James 1 and in Peter 1 were Israelites Strong's # 1290. diaspora (dee-as-por-ah')dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries.
I have also shown you that the folks who came back from Babylon were considered to be of only three tribes, but were all known as Jews because two of those tribes had migrated to Judah....and folks who lived in Judah were called Jews. [Ezra 1:5] Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
I have also shown you that the word Jew in Hebrew means: Strong's #3064. Yhuwdiy (yeh-hoo-dee')a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah)
I have also shown you that the word Jew in Greek means: Strong's #2453. Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos)as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah
I have also shown you that the word Israelite in Hebrew means: Strong's #3481. Yisr'eliy (yis-reh-ay-lee')a Jisreelite or descendant of Jisrael
Now I am going to show you what the word Israelite means in Greek. It is used twice in the New Testament [John 1:47] and [Romans 11:1] Strong's #2475. Israelites (is-rah-ale-ee'-tace)an "Israelite", i.e. descendant of Israel (literally or figuratively.
Well.....everyone has now learned that Jews are from the tribe of Judah. They have also learned that Judah is one of the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel). Consequently, everyone now knows that the other eleven sons....and their descendants did not call themselves Jews...............but, they were all Israelites.
Yes, I know. You still don't understand.
But there will another Temple before Ezekials Temple, the one the anti-Christ will sit in (2Thess.2) proclaiming himeself to be god.
You're right in that the scripture does say "Temple", and I could be wrong about this, but when the scripture was written there was a Temple there and there is another "holy" place on the same site now. I believe the Dome of the rock is where the anti-christ will sit. That brings more meaning to the scripture "For their rock is not as our Rock...", (Deu.32:31)
And who are these 12 tribes which you seem to take great pains in avoiding in naming?
I don't understand why you say that. They are the same 12 named in the Bible.
And what particular religion are you and your partner Diego?
As I don't speak for my "partner" Diego, you will need to direct the question to him. I'm happy to answer for me and tell you that I am Christian.
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