Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
"He who letteth" isn't the church or the Holy Sprit but it is Michael the Archangel.
Jude 11:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke thee."
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy People: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since thre was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy People shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Rev.12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8.And prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Michael is the one that, "he who now letteth".
"After he who now letteth is gone, then the Wicked one is revealed whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."
I understand 2Thess.2:9 in a different way than you. The "he" referenced here is Jesus. He comes after the working of Satan who had power and signs and lying wonders.
"So for a time Satan and his anti-christ are given time to do some work, but the Holy Spirit is not present (which means the church is not present) as He was before He was taken out of the way. This is all before the second coming."
My belief is that Satan is the anti-christ, it is one of the roles he plays. He is given time to work but the church is here. I agree that it will all be before the second coming.
Well, at least lots of nice property will become available in case of rapture. I guess we heathens will have the pick of the litter. :P
I'd like to think that clouds means,,,clouds...And air,,,is air...The translaters could just as well as said a 'cloud of saints if that's what they meant...I would have if that's what I'd meant...
Then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them (those that have died before us) in a (huge crowd), to meet the Lord in (our spirit bodies): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And to compare this with the actual verse:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And coupled with the companion verses for the Rapture:
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is a physical resurrection as well as a spirital resurrection...
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Whether the Rapture is Pre, or Post, it's a physical resurrection and we Christians will meet the Lord in the atmosphere...He doesn't land on the ground as he does at the 2nd coming...
No one will see Him...Not even the Christians...The graves will be opened and the bodies of the dead saints/Christians will undergo a change in mid air as they (and we) are lifted off the face of the earth...
He descends at His 2nd Advent, at the 7th trump, as He told us (1Corin.15:52). The 7th trump is the last trump. Satan comes first at the 6th seal, 6th trump and 6th vial - 666.
An interesting point is why did the translaters of the KJV, who had no clue about a Pre-Trib Rapture, use the term 'at the last trump' as opposed to the last trumpet??? Could it be the last trump of the 1st trumpet???For they go on to say "for the trumpet will sound"...I'm convinced 'this trumpet' is not one of the 7 trumpets sounded during the Tribulation...
The dead "rise first" because they are already with Him, that was what Paul was telling them. They are not in a hole in the ground but with Him.
But yes, they are in a hole in the ground, physically...And for some, their ashes are scattered across the earth and in some cases, outer space...Some are at the bottom of the oceans...
Spiritually, the dead in Christ are with the Lord...At the Rapture, they will physically be with the Lord...
I believe my original assessment was correct...
Boy Ping, your hermenutics in II Thess 2:9 is as bad as it is in II Thess 2:10. May I refer you to a few commentaries on that verse.
JF&B:
after--according to the working ("energy") of Satan, as opposed to the energy or working of the Holy Spirit in the Church (see on Eph_1:19). As Christ is related to God, so is Antichrist to Satan, his visible embodiment and manifestation: Satan works through him. Rev_13:2, "The dragon gave him (the beast) his power . . . seat . . . great authority."
Gill:
2Th 2:9 - Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan,.... That is, as a deceiver, a liar, and a murderer; for such was the working of Satan with our first parents; he seduced Eve, not only by subtlety, but by lying; he abode not in the truth, is the father of lies, and a murderer from the beginning: and such is the working of antichrist his firstborn; he comes in a deceitful way, under a profession of Christ, and a pretension of faith in him, and love to him; but speaks lies in hypocrisy, for such are his doctrines and tenets; and is not only a murderer of the bodies of the saints, but of the souls of men; which are the wares the whore of Babylon deals in:
Clarke:
2Th 2:9 - Whose coming is after the working of Satan - The operation of GodÃÂs Spirit sends his messengers; the operation of SatanÃÂs spirit sends his emissaries. The one comes κατàενεργειαν του Θεου, after or according to the energy or inward powerful working of God; the other comes κατàενεργειαν του Σατανα, according to the energy or inward working of Satan.
Barnes:
2Th 2:9 - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan - Greek, κατ ̓ ἐνέργειαν τοὺ Σατανᾶ kat' energeian tou Satana. According to the energy of Satan; that is, the energetic or efficient operation of Satan. The word rendered ÃÂafter,ÃÂ it need not be said to one who looks at the Greek, does not refer to time, but is a preposition, meaning according to; in conformity with; meaning that the manner of his appearing would be accompanied by such works as would show that the agency of Satan was employed, and such as he only could produce. It does not mean that the coming of the Lord Jesus would be after Satan had worked in this manner, but that the manifestation of that wicked one would be with such demonstrations of power and wonder as Satan only could effect. The system over which he presides is originated by Satan, and sustained by those things which he alone can perform. On the word ÃÂSatan,ÃÂ see the notes on Job_1:6. The idea is, that it would be under the direction and control of the great enemy of God, and that the things on which it would rely for support could be traced to his agency. In all the pretended miracles to which it would appeal, there would be nothing which Satan could not accomplish.
Would you warn them if you felt they were in jeopardy?
At any rate, eshcatology is not central to Christian belief. So we ought not to be questioning either the intelligence or the good will of those who disagree with us on this issue.
Do you feel I question your intelligence or good will. If you do I haven't made my case properly and I apologize. That was never my intention, nor do I believe that.
Nobody is in jeopardy for having a mistaken notion about eschatology. Nobody will go to hell because they didn't have correct beliefs about the rapture. Having a mistaken belief about the rapture is not a sin. The whole thing is a mystery. When push comes to shove, I think we will all someday find out that we were all wrong in one way or another.
Do you feel I question your intelligence or good will.
No but some people think we are all brainwashed. Hogwash.
Let’s see, clouds are groups of people; air is spirit; rising first means coming down; the restrainer of evil is Michael; and the one who comes according to the workings of Satan is Jesus. All of this truth in code to a brand new church that Paul had only a short time to establish and a Gentile one at that. Why would Paul use symbolic language to answer very clear and important questions, like, “if the Lord’s return is at hand what about the dead in Christ?” Or, “we just got this message that the Lord is returning, is it true?” when all he has to do is use the usual meaning of words they would understand, like clouds mean clouds and air means air and we will rise to meet Jesus who is bringing the dead in Christ with Him to be united with their resurrection bodies. Now that is a heck of a lot clearer than the tortuous route of symbol.
Gentiles would have no knowledge of Michael, the prince of Israel. He is only mentioned twice in the Old Testament in Daniel 10. Why would baby Gentile Christians jump to the conclusion that “he that restrains” would be an angel when they have been taught that God, the Holy Spirit is present with them to lead, comfort and guide them unlike His operation during the time of Daniel? Is the Holy Spirit incapable of multi-tasking?
How can you warn with such an uncertain sound?
"But whatever is given by inspiration of God is given for our instruction, and we must patiently and humbly take Gods word as He has written it, and see if it deals in "ambiguous metaphors," and whether perhaps we may not find there the truth of which we are in search." Facts and Theories As To a Future State by F. W. Grant, Ch 25, last paragraph.
Your resume lists that you have written articles for RatpureReady.com Yet you claim that those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are twisting the scriptures and comitting error "bordering on the horrific."
Why would you post articles for RaptureReady.com if you disagree so vehemently with their purpose?
But their philosophy is identical to Rapture Ready.
Yes, anyone living at that time, including the "church" are on earth during the opening of all the seals, trumps and vials. Is the church going through God's judgments - Yes, and hopefully we will be "judged" worthy. Others will not.
Will we experience God's wrath? No, we will not if we haven't followed Satan. We will however be fully assaulted during Satan's tribulation.
Matt.24:15.When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whosoreadeth, let him understand:)
21.For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The assault of his tribulation is lies and deceit. If you are sealed with God's Word he cannot touch you.
(Rev. 6-9, 11, 15-16) - 9-11 refer to those that have died before us and are part of the army He brings with Him when He returns. 15-16 refer to those on earth that believed the lie. When they see the true Christ they will realize they were taken but it will be too late.
I am familiar with the works of some of the Exclusive Brethren and their hermeneutics which I have used at times in teaching. However, when the passage is clear to search for the esoteric to satisfy preconceived ideas is to turn the scriptures over to the professionals and the unscrupulous thus denying the perspicuity of the word.
When push comes to shove, I think we will all someday find out that we were all wrong in one way or another.
I agree completely but isn't the search for His truth a wonderful trip?
No but some people think we are all brainwashed. Hogwash.
I agree again. I believe this is part of "someday we will find we were all wrong in one way or another".
Nobody is in jeopardy for having a mistaken notion about eschatology. Nobody will go to hell because they didn't have correct beliefs about the rapture. Having a mistaken belief about the rapture is not a sin.
I'm afraid that here we disagree. If one should die before the 2nd Advent then there is no harm as long as they have accepted Christ. Belief in the rapture or not wouldn't have any effect on them as they did not follow Satan during his tribulation. It will only be a jeopardy if they don't wait for the true Christ and fall for Satan playing like he is the Lamb. As scripture tells us, "The whole world will wonder after him". His time seems to be drawing closer.
Can you name any pre-tribulationists that you know who have not already accepted Christ?
Now can you name for me anyone that you know that does not believe in the Rapture who has not accepted Christ?
I suspect that the first list will be much shorter than the second.
Belief in the rapture or not wouldn't have any effect on them as they did not follow Satan during his tribulation. It will only be a jeopardy if they don't wait for the true Christ and fall for Satan playing like he is the Lamb.
Is God going to allow any of his sheep to be devoured by Satan? The sheep will follow Christ. The goats will follow Satan.
As scripture tells us, "The whole world will wonder after him". His time seems to be drawing closer.
Those who follow Christ are in the world, but not of the world. The world will follow Satan. They always have. The tribulation will be no different. It's just that during the tribulation they will suffer the Wrath of God for their disbelief.
No, I can't.
Now can you name for me anyone that you know that does not believe in the Rapture who has not accepted Christ?
Yes, I can.
Is God going to allow any of his sheep to be devoured by Satan? The sheep will follow Christ. The goats will follow Satan.
Yes, He tells us He allows it. That is my concern.
The Bible culminates with the great battle for souls at the end of this age. He tells us how difficult it will be, warns us of what to look for and tells us exactly what is expected of us. For those which, "had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev.19:4-5)
Those that worship the beast will do it unknowingly. Is rapture part of that? Is that the deception of end times?
There are only two sides in this battle. Those who follow Christ and those who follow the world. Those who follow Christ will not follow the beast. They belong to Jesus. Those who choose to reject Christ will, by default, follow the beast.
I do believe that the Church will be taken out of the picture prior to the introduction of the beast simply because the Tribulation is the 70th Week of Daniel and the 70th Week of Daniel is the last week for Israel. The tribulation is the day of the Lord promised to the Children of Israel in which God will purify his nation by fire. The age of the Gentiles will end as the last week mentioned in Daniel:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Who were the "Thy people" mentioned in Daniel? Was it the gentiles? No. It was the Jews and the Nation of Israel.
It is at the end of the 70th week that all these things will be fulfilled. Revelation refers to the sealing of 144,000 Jews who are referenced as the servants of God. If there were millions of Gentile Christians on the earth during the beginning of the Tribulation, then why does God seal 144,000 Jews and place them in the special place of having the seal of the Living God placed upon their foreheads? Why does he not do this to the millions upon millions of Gentile Christians?
My answer is because they are all busy worshipping the Lord at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb at this time.
Yes, there are only two sides. The Christians that "reject" Christ do not choose to reject Christ knowingly - they believed the lie. That is what is so sad.
Who were the "Thy people" mentioned in Daniel? Was it the gentiles? No. It was the Jews and the Nation of Israel.
The Jews are not the "House" of Israel, the 12 tribes. The "Nation" of Israel wasn't founded until 1948. Those mentioned in Rev.7:4 are "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". The Jews, the tribe of Judah, are only one of those tribes.
Revelation 2
18 And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
Also: Proverbs 7
At the same time as the Chapter 7 sealing of the 144,000 Jews is taking place on earth, there is also the identification of the white-robed, blood-purchased throng in Chapter 7. This throng is from every nation,people, tribe, language: that is, Gentile believers in Christ.
I probably would have too Iscool, but Paul didn't. He used that same expression in another verse, it was just his manner of speech: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Heb.12:1)
"1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.....This is a physical resurrection as well as a spirital resurrection"...
It is my belief that Paul tells us differently in the following verses:
1Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another
42.So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised incorruption.
44.It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
One other verse to consider in all of this is Ezekiel 13:20. Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Could that be a reference to rapture?
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