Posted on 06/15/2007 5:33:53 AM PDT by Between the Lines
Got it, I will try harder :)
I saw your response to ears about making it personal. Could you give me some guidance on how my post could be taken personal? As far as I can tell, I was (personally) attacked, and simply responded by pointing out the presumption of the attacker. Guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Several here have found it helpful to review the use of pronouns before hitting post.
For instance, "your statement is incoherent" is not making it personal whereas "you are incoherent" is. And, as in the above, "That's too many presumptions for me, Mr. C." would not be making it personal.
Noted. Thanks.
Please see post #209, which is close to my thinking on the subject. At this point, I cannot address this issue further.
I've been doing quite well and hope you are as well.
I don't have the kind of data you seem to be asking for... but I don't need it. I can give you the answer to the underlying question... and quite easily.
The Body of Christ... the Church Militant if you will... is made up of men... and therefore sinners. And no flavor of sin is exempted just because someone is saved... and especially because of what flavor of Christian he calls himself.
If it's a really big church (say... a billion+ members), there are going to be thousands upon thousands of these kinds of horrendous examples every year. If it's just the church down the street with 200 members... it could be many years between examples.
But the result is the same. If you look to the denomination and say "this is the 'correct' one and is closer to God - so I won't have to worry about ever dealing with a pastor falling to sexual sin", then you are just fooling yourself.
A commonly misunderstood verse (by protestants anyway).
Tell me... when Israel was also called a kingdom of priests ("kingdom - Mamlakah " also being translated "royal" on occasion) in Exodus... did God do away with the ministerial priesthood?
Or does your Old Testament end part-way through the second book?
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Furthermore, the levite priests never had a part of the land. They were God's part, He was theirs. Now, as Jesus said, his kingdom is not of this world. 'Nuff said
Second, Protestant clergy number in the hundreds of thousands. Catholic clergy number (maybe) in the 40 thousands, more or less.
On the one hand there are many more Protestant clergy "eligible" to be abusers. On the other, there are many more potential victims for each of the Catholic clergy.
Third, how dumb do you think I am? The church down the street with two hundred members probably belongs to an affinity group which numbers in the millions of members. Remember, the article said there were three main insurers for the more than 100,000,000 "Protestants".
4. I believe your answer is unconvincing and unresponsive.
But the result is the same. If you look to the denomination and say "this is the 'correct' one and is closer to God - so I won't have to worry about ever dealing with a pastor falling to sexual sin", then you are just fooling yourself.
I agree wholeheartedly my friend. I will go even farther; If you look at a denomination and say "this is the one and only true church" you are just fooling yourself.
That said I believe the individual Protestant Churches (most of them) probably belong to some kind of affinity group and get group rates from the three major insurers based on experience. I would also expect the Catholic Churches are getting their insurance from a limited number of insurers. This makes sense to me but "what do I know"? (I do remember from my past experience and education, admittedly way way back many years ago, that's the way business works.)
If I were a betting man I'd lay money on the following:
1. Pedophilia among Protestant and Catholic clergy is similar; almost nonexistent.
2. Sexual abuse and "indiscretion" among Protestant clergy would be largely heterosexual.
3. Sexual abuse and "indiscretion" among Catholic clergy would be largely homosexual.
Once again, thank you my friend. (You did expect some little "educational abuse" from me didn't you?)
He renewed the priesthood of Melchizadek and offered bread and wine. An offering that continues to this day (and most certainly was the center of liturgical worship in the early church). Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
That demolishes your attempted point. He fulfilled the law.... He didn't destroy it. The Law remains.
If true, so what? If a nondenomination pastor has a gay affair with a choir member and down the road Presbyterian lesbian minister sleeps with a teenage girl... and a block further down a Baptist minister abuses a young boy...
... it doesn't get reported in the paper as a "protestant" problem. You may lump "Protestant Clergy" into a single group, but the media doesn't (and rightly so).
Third, how dumb do you think I am? The church down the street with two hundred members probably belongs to an affinity group which numbers in the millions of members.
Apparently "dumber" than you were in years past. :) The "church down the street" is not necessarily likely to be affiliated with a larger group. Sometimes there is a titular similarity (i.e. "Baptist" is seen all over - with little connection between two churches sharing the name)... Think of all the "X Bible Church"s you see around... they share no connection with one another (apart from being part of the Body) and no media outlet will associate the two.
Remember, the article said there were three main insurers for the more than 100,000,000 "Protestants".
So? That leaves off several factors... one of which is obviously that media accounts of large numbers of abuse cases cause others to come out of the woodwork. I'm not saying allegations are made up, but people who have remained silent are more likely to cease doing so when three others turn out to have been abused too. If you never hear about it... ??? And that impacts lawsuit filings and this insurance claims. As the article says quite clearly
4. I believe your answer is unconvincing and unresponsive.
Nope. It's the only rational response. You're trying to compare denominations by trying to find some statistical measurement of sinfulness in their clergy.
I'm sorry to tell you... but an accurate survey would show "100% Sinners" in any denomination.
If I were a betting man I'd lay money on the following:
1. Pedophilia among Protestant and Catholic clergy is similar; almost nonexistent.
2. Sexual abuse and "indiscretion" among Protestant clergy would be largely heterosexual.
3. Sexual abuse and "indiscretion" among Catholic clergy would be largely homosexual.
I rather doubt it (oh... you would win #1 if you could find many takers). The mistake is obviously assuming that if someone decides to become celibate, he's more likely to have been gay. I don't buy it. Paul said it was best for a man to remain celibate... shall I then assume that protestant ministers (virtually none of whom remain so) are more likely to be sexual sinners?
Once again, thank you my friend. (You did expect some little "educational abuse" from me didn't you?)
Of course. Good to hear from you again. How have you been doing?
Not sure but I believe I’ve seen this movie
somewhere before. :-)
Not sure but I believe I’ve seen this movie
somewhere before. :-)
Must have been a double feature even. :-)
Do you frequently find that you gain extra credibility by dodging the points others make?
As for your claim... you may remember that when He offered Himself... He said "Do this"
How ya been, oh Ignorant one?
:)
Good to hear from you.
Ignorant as ever. Invincibly even. Doin' good. You?
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