Old Latin Mass Makes a Comeback (in St. Louis)

St. Louis Catholic Blog ^ | June 14, 2007

[Pyro7480]

I also found it interesting how the power to transform bread and wine was conferred separately from the power to forgive sins.

Two different prayers during the ordination?

[adiaireton8]

Let's see if I can sum this up. The ordination began after the homily. This began with the call, the scrutiny and the instruction. Then came the prostration of the two deacons (who were to made priests) during the litany of the saints. Then the bishop (and all the priests) imposed their hands on the deacons for the "bestowal of the office" of the priesthood. Then came the investiture with the priestly vestments (chasuble). But the chasuble was still folded up, not full length. Then came the anointing of their hands, so that [quoting from the English translation]: "whatsoever they shall bless may be blessed, and whatsoever they shall consecrate be consecrated and sanctified, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." Then came the "Bestowal of the power to offer Holy Mass", where Archbishop Burke said to the two deacons [translated to English]: "Receive the power to offer sacrifice to God and to celebrate Mass for the living as well as for the dead. In the name of the Lord." Then came the Alleluia. Then the Gospel was chanted in Latin. The Creed was then sung in Latin. Then [skipping a bit], after the Sanctus, came the Agnus Dei, then we received the Eucharist. Then both of the deacons cited the Creed in Latin in unison. And then Archbishop Burke imposed his hands upon them again, for the "Bestowal of the Power to Forgive Sins", saying [translated to English], "Receive the Holy Ghost; whose sins thou shalt forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins thous shalt retain, they are retained." Then the chasuble was unfolded full length. There was more that I am skipping over. The point I'm making is that the conferral of the power to transform bread and wine took place before the Eucharist, but the conferral of the power to forgive sins took place after the Eucharist.

-A8

[Dajjal]

bumpus ad summum

[Suzy Quzy]

What is a spiritual communion?

[NYer]

I'll be there tomorrow.

Awesome! Please post a thread about the experience.

[ichabod1]

My Jesus, I believe that You are present in the Most Holy Sacrament. I love You above all things, and I desire to receive You into my soul. Since I cannot at this moment receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You were already there and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You. Amen.

[Suzy Quzy]

WOW!! Thanks.

[kosta50]

The point I'm making is that the conferral of the power to transform bread and wine took place before the Eucharist

Do I understand it correctly that in the Catholic Church it is the priest who transforms the bread and wine, or is it the priest who is given to grace to call on the Holy Spirit to transform the bread and wine? In other words, who is doing the changing?

[ELS]

God performs the miracle. The priest calls on Him in the words of the consecration of the bread and the wine.

[ELS]

My favorite part, I think was the litany of the saints, in Latin, in chant, while the priests (to be) were prostrate.

I LOVE the Litany of the Saints. About a year or two ago, I participated in an act of reparation in NYC (there is a thread about it on FR somewhere) where the crowd chanted the Litany of the Saints in Latin, with the priest leading it, and hearing the chant echo through the canyons of the skyscrapers in NYC was quite moving.

Was it all chanted by the clergy/schola/choir or did the congregation take part in it?

[ELS]

More photos from Friday's ordinations.

[Pyro7480]

Thanks for the link!

[Pyro7480]

Thanks for that explanation.

By the way, do you know who the other bishop in the photo is? I know one is Bishop Finn from Kansas City, Missouri (who I actually met briefly back in the autumn).

From Archbishop Burke of Saint Louis, MO, Ordains Two ICRSS Priests, June 15, 2007

[kosta50]

God performs the miracle. The priest calls on Him in the words of the consecration of the bread and the wine

I thought so, I just needed a clarification, Thank you.

It is my understanding that the tradiitional Latin Mass either doesn't have epiklesis or that epiklesis is diminished. Can you clarify that?

[kosta50]

Pyro, I see the archibishop's hat is taller than, say what you see nowadays such as this example. Is this just another style or is this significant?

Compare to Archbishop Burke's hat

[Pyro7480]

Yeah, even Pope Benedict XVI has worn mitres smaller than the one Archbishop Burke is wearing in the pic. That one is a more traditional design I guess.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“It is my understanding that the tradiitional Latin Mass either doesn’t have epiklesis or that epiklesis is diminished. Can you clarify that?”

Yes and no. There is no explicit prayer called the epiclesis, but:

“This is the theory defended by their theologians at the Council of Florence (1439). A deputation of Latins and Greeks was appointed then to discuss the question. The Greeks maintained that both forms are necessary, that Transubstantiation does not take place till the second one (the Epiklesis) is pronounced, and that the Latin “Supplices te rogamus” is a true Epiklesis having the same effect as theirs.” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05502a.htm

Apparently this view, that the “Supplices te rogamus” is a true Epiklesis, is still held by Eastern Orthodox liturgists such as Nicholas Cabasilas:

“According to the great Orthodox liturgical scholar and saint, Nicholas Cabasilas, the prayer in the Roman rite “Supplices te rogamus” (”Most humbly we implore Thee”) is an “ascending epiklesis.”” http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/johnson_western_rite.htm

[vladimir998]

Oops! Nicholas Cabasilas was not a modern liturgist, but a 14th century Orthodox saint.

My bad.

Friends of mine who had suffered many years in Novus Ordo parishes used to tell the following joke:

You know what the difference is between a terrorist and a liturgist?

You can negotiate with the terrorist.

[Pyro7480]

You know what the difference is between a terrorist and a liturgist? You can negotiate with the terrorist.

LOL!!

[kosta50]

Yes and no. There is no explicit prayer called the epiclesis

The epiklesis is the supplication of the Holy Spirit to mystically change (i.e. transubstantiate in the western terminology) the bread and wine. My understanding is that the traditional Latin Mass does not call on the HS specifically, but that there are additional prayers that do.

It is also my understanding (from having heard post-vatican II Masses) that the so-called NO Mass does have epiklesis.