Are Calvinists born ignorant, or do they have to WORK AT IT???
Posted on 06/10/2007 3:02:20 PM PDT by NYer
Many modern people have the notion that the principal mission of the Catholic Church is to impose belief on unbelievers. The reality is that most of its time is spent trying to restrain belief in everything from spoon-bending to the aliens who allegedly speak to us through a cat in Poughkeepsie.
The riptides and cross-currents of religious enthusiasm in American culture are kaleidoscopic and dizzying. Cradle Catholics can be forgiven for just ignoring the whole thing and many of them do. But it’s still worth taking into account because some religious trends can have decided real-world effects.
Some of the effects of unrestrained belief can be amusing.
For instance, after five centuries of being told by Protestant polemicists that we “Romanists” do not trust the saving grace of Jesus Christ and ignorantly seek salvation by the works of the law, it is a weird thing for a Catholic to see the spectacle of kooky apocalyptic Protestants eagerly excited about the birth of red heifers because this will (they hope) be the prelude to rebuilding the Temple of Solomon and the re-institution of the Mosaic sacrificial system. Just how that Temple will be rebuilt when the Dome of the Rock is situated on the site of the Temple is not quite as clearly worked out.
Which brings me to something just as kooky, but less amusing.
Recently, James Dobson, a leading Evangelical and a usually sensible man, hosted on his show one Joel Rosenberg, author of something called Epicenter: Why Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Change Your Future. Rosenberg claims to know “what the Bible says” about what is happening in the Mideast and is not shy about making “predictions regarding the fate of the Middle East regarding issues such as Iran’s nuclear threats against Israel, the arms race and ultimately ... Armageddon.” Here’s a snippet:
Dobson: “Well, Joel, let’s explain to everybody how Ezekiel 38 turns out, because Israel is about to be attacked, and a huge number of troops from Russia and Iran are coming toward Israel to destroy it, and what happens?”
Rosenberg: “Well, God is going to move. You won’t find in the Scriptures that the United States is coming to rescue Israel or the European Union, but God says he is going to supernaturally intervene — we’re talking about fire from heaven, a massive earthquake, diseases spreading through the enemy forces. It is going to be such a clear judgment against the enemies of Israel that Ezekiel 39 says that it will take seven months to bury all the bodies of the slain enemies of Israel. “
Such standard-issue Evangelical prophetic cocksureness is an excellent example of why a magisterium is so useful and necessary.
Not only does the magisterium help us know what is essential to the faith, it also helps us remain free of what is unessential. For the various species of Protestantism, in addition to denying real biblical truths such as the Real Presence or infant baptism, also have a tendency to invent “biblical truths” that do not exist and impose them by means of a sort of cultural pressure via charismatic preachers with pet theories who, in their own sphere, are granted an infallibility the Pope could never dream of.
Now, a Catholic is quite free to have a kooky private reading of Ezekiel 38-39 as a prophecy of the “coming resurgent Soviet Union” and its alliance with Muslims, communist Chinese or whoever, all in a vast Cecil B. DeMille battle against Israel. The Church has all sorts of room for eccentrics, and everybody needs a hobby.
But a Catholic is not free to go around telling everybody that “this is the clear teaching of the Bible” and demand it be believed. For the fact is, this kooky theory is emphatically not the clear teaching of the Bible, nor does it have any sanction whatsoever from the Church, the tradition, the Fathers, the councils or the popes. It is a pure novelty we can and should ignore.
What we should not ignore is Rosenberg’s claim that, “Given the events going on in our world today, people at the Pentagon, people at the CIA, people at the White House are asking to sit down and talk about these issues, to understand the Biblical perspective, because it is uncanny what is happening out there and it deserves some study.”
I suspect that Rosenberg is exaggerating his clout with the big cheeses in DC. I doubt that the Pentagon’s intel meetings are dominated by exegeses of Ezekiel 38.
But I do think it matters if a significant portion of the American polity drinks in such bizarre theories as if they were God’s revealed Truth.
Ideas have consequences, especially crazy ones. Most crazy ideas do no harm.
Crazy ideas about the Middle East, backed by the force of arms, stand a better than average chance of killing millions.
Cuz I made myself a new rule, I can't talk to those anti kind of people anymore but whatizname wants to know who spewed and it would be himself.
MAGICSTERICAL=spewing.
It is an attempt to degrade and if it was meant as a joke it is not funny unless you're maybe 11 yrs old and it isn't even original.
At bottom, the question is: who do you believe?
For me, the answer is God.
I have cast all of my burdens on the Lord, thrown all caution to His wind. I believe Him and trust Him. My fate is in His hands alone. Therefore, I personally eschew all the doctrines and traditions of men across the board.
At the Great White Throne judgement I pray no one will suffer blame on my account - including apostles, religious leaders, evangelists, teachers, translators and councils.
Much agree with every line.
Thanks thanks.
Are Calvinists born ignorant, or do they have to WORK AT IT???
It is an attempt to degrade and if it was meant as a joke it is not funny unless you're maybe 11 yrs old and it isn't even original.
NOT AT ALL.
Actually, I find this: It is an attempt to degrade to be mind-reading and very poor and thoroughly inaccurate mind-reading, at that.
My original and abiding motive in ORIGINATING--to my awareness I was the first to come up with the term--the word--my motive was and is to highlight--put a spotlight on--EMPHASIZE--the very
HUMAN TENDENCY--VIRTUALLY--HUMAN NATURE--in ANY collection of humans gathered together in a group; given a lofty intellectual, RELIGIOUS title and mandate
. . . the natural human tendency, compulsion, habit for such individuals in such groups IN ALL DENOMINATIONS to become MAGICAL AND HYSTERICAL in their thinking and their pronouncements--also with great pride; great chips on their shoulders and great tendencies to be punitive, hostile and condescending to all who disagree with their learned and sanctimonious pronouncements.
85-95% of my observations of such have been with Proty MAGICSTERICALS. My observations of RC MAGICSTERICALS have been from a distance and a lot fewer. But I find all of the examples I've observed to be essentially similar if not the same on key aspects as noted above. I haven't found a single such group in any denomination to be worth putting much stock in and mostly, wholesale more fitting to put a lot of wariness up about. I have seen far more of them be at least 51% destructive if not overwhelmingly destructive. That is not limited to Proty such groups--though they have been my primary observational examples that I've derived my conclusions from.
and if it was meant as a joke it is not funny unless you're maybe 11 yrs old
Well, you just happen to be factually absolutely wrong on that score. A number of the more mature, good humored, brighter and balanced, charitable folks hereon FREEPMAILED me that it was one of the more amusing things they've ever seen me write. But I do understand that folks with chips on their shoulders and thin skins would be somewhat likely to not find it funny.
and it isn't even original.
News to me. I came up with it out of the blue, having never seen it before, as I was writing a post on FR. Evidently GMTA. LOL.
Now, as to spewing . . . I am well capable of SPEWING as are a number of RC folks.
But I don't think folks really want to see me write such stuff and I am not interested in writing such stuff. But I CAN show you spewing--and it's several orders of magnitude worse than MAGISTERICAL. Perhaps the suggestion to "grow up, get a thicker skin and trash the chip on one's shoulder" would be good advice hereon.
I do NOT consider FR nor America a place where folks have a RIGHT to be UNoffended. I believe we are responsible before God about the offenses we needlessly take up; take to heart and respond to out of a bad faith sort of heart attitude.
Even pointed, satirical, mocking hyperbole has a place--it is in many places in Scripture. But I've not written in such a style hereon for quite some time. I'm well capable of returning by popular RC acclaim, if so desired, however.
I tend to have a bias for a robust sort of aggressive free for all exchange of ideas and even of emotions. I've muted that wholesale--largely because of Mad Dawg being my friend and wanting me to. But I still have strong preferences in those directions.
You know, Quix, I was starting to read and enjoy your posts since you became more congenial.
But with this last post you seem to be back-sliding.
Thanks for your kind words.
But I don’t see me backsliding at all.
I see me saying . . . to folks who SEEM
obsessively . . . affixed to thin skins, jumping to conclusions and chips on their shoulders to . . . grow up a bit.
And, I’m noting that IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE
FOR ME TO RETURN to such a style. But that I don’t think that’s what the whiners would really like.
I see the above post as incredibly gentle and kind. I could have used a verbal 2 X 4 and it was far from that.
I don’t think RC’s or Calvinists or Pentecostals or any other Believer or value orientation do themselves any favors or their orientations any favors when they come across as petty, whining, thin-skinned, brittle with huge chips on their shoulders etc. It may be human . . . but it’s not blessed nor attractive. And usually, nowadays hereon, it’s not warranted.
Disagreeing and saying things with some reasonable forcefulness is not the same as RC bashing or any similar thing. The lack of ability or lack of willingness to make those distinctions is not attractive nor fruitful for collaborative discussion.
It seems to be an RC doctrine of faith or dogma or ritual or some such . . . that whenever a Proty disagrees with any seriousness or forcefulness AT ALL—that the RC respondent MUST, ABSOLUTELY MUST wail, throw dust in the air and fling ashes and blame far and wide about how horrible, unfair, abusive etc. the comment was. When, mostly, it was merely a forceful disagreement and different description or construction on reality.
RC’S ARE MORE FORCEFUL, brittle, demanding, startlingly ALL OR NOTHING descriptive about those who don’t buy into their construction on reality still . . . somewhat routinely. The double standard gets very old and wearying.
In short—quit whining about nothing before someone’s patience runs out and they return to giving something worth whining about.
Quite a number of Proties are NOT going to roll over and play dead just because RC's make some pronouncement about their construction on reality.
We feel just as duty bound before God to speak up for the construction on spiritual and Christian reality which we feel is MORE kosher, fitting, accurate, Scriptural, Christ-like etc.
We will not always wrap every word and phrase in 12 layers of foam and rabbit fur--bending over backwards to try and insure that every nuance has little likelihood in offending thin-skinned RC's with big chips on their shoulders.
NOT going to happen.
Deal with it.
We don't get hyper and foam at the mouth every time some RC poster rants, rails and accuses or throws some baiting thing in our faces any more. We may respond pointedly--even forcefully--but I haven't seen such with rancor in a long time. Maybe I've just missed it. But I think even Dr. E and I have been startlingly and sometimes sadly and overly quite mellow.
Mellow is OK when it's motivated by Love and consideration, kindness, compassion.
But AVOID mistaking it for kowtowing to a view of spiritual and Scriptural reality which we often still find startlingly horrid in this or that way or list of ways. Our mellowness does not imply growing agreement. It implies growing kindness and Christian preferring one another AS UNTO CHRIST because it pleases HIM.
It still appears that several RC's--perhaps a dozen or more even--feel duty bound to wail, whine, puff up their lips and generally throw dust in the air because we don't either agree with them or defer to them in exceedingly submissive, deferent tones. Tough tacos. Not going to happen any more than the reverse is going to happen. Get real.
My use of MAGICSTERICAL is now well known to apply across the board to ANY group of spiritual oversight leaders. ANY--IN ANY GROUP. Taking exclusive offense at the implications of the term for the RC examples of the magicsterical is . . . childish, petty, . . . missing the point wholesale . . . or worse, claiming that RC folks
GET REAL!
GUESS WHAT--RC FOLKS ARE !NOT! IMMUNE TO BEING HUMAN!
Sigh.
Thanks for your opinion and perspective.
I’m sure in many respects and contexts and contingencies that your consistency is quite commendable and advantageous.
It’s quite nice, actually, that you are sooo good at being YOU!
Sincerely,
Whenever you post “MAGICSTERICALS,” you discard most of your reading audience. All that remains after such absurdity is “the choir.”
LOL
You are plenty bright to
KNOW
that the title of this thread
was a screaming red flag baiting title.
The discussion could have been held in an RC caucus.
One has to assume it wasn’t for a reason—a baiting reason.
And, some responses have been slightly to moderately forceful.
And the whining wailing began on cue.
Impressive.
Don’t pretend to you or your family or personal friends that you are convincing anyone here.
You’re ridiculous posts are somewhat less absurd than the admonitions of smock-clad homeless persons toting signs that warn “The End is Nigh.”
Could you expand your list of verboten attacks to attack on groups? People can criticize beliefs all they want, but when they start saying “Catholic are this way,” and “Evangelicals always do such and such,” that’s crossing a line.
I’ll consider it. It has taken a year to get most of the RF posters to stop making it personal. And there are still slip-ups even with the oldtimers. But it would be another step up in improving the dialogue.
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