Posted on 06/10/2007 3:02:20 PM PDT by NYer
Many modern people have the notion that the principal mission of the Catholic Church is to impose belief on unbelievers. The reality is that most of its time is spent trying to restrain belief in everything from spoon-bending to the aliens who allegedly speak to us through a cat in Poughkeepsie.
The riptides and cross-currents of religious enthusiasm in American culture are kaleidoscopic and dizzying. Cradle Catholics can be forgiven for just ignoring the whole thing and many of them do. But it’s still worth taking into account because some religious trends can have decided real-world effects.
Some of the effects of unrestrained belief can be amusing.
For instance, after five centuries of being told by Protestant polemicists that we “Romanists” do not trust the saving grace of Jesus Christ and ignorantly seek salvation by the works of the law, it is a weird thing for a Catholic to see the spectacle of kooky apocalyptic Protestants eagerly excited about the birth of red heifers because this will (they hope) be the prelude to rebuilding the Temple of Solomon and the re-institution of the Mosaic sacrificial system. Just how that Temple will be rebuilt when the Dome of the Rock is situated on the site of the Temple is not quite as clearly worked out.
Which brings me to something just as kooky, but less amusing.
Recently, James Dobson, a leading Evangelical and a usually sensible man, hosted on his show one Joel Rosenberg, author of something called Epicenter: Why Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Change Your Future. Rosenberg claims to know “what the Bible says” about what is happening in the Mideast and is not shy about making “predictions regarding the fate of the Middle East regarding issues such as Iran’s nuclear threats against Israel, the arms race and ultimately ... Armageddon.” Here’s a snippet:
Dobson: “Well, Joel, let’s explain to everybody how Ezekiel 38 turns out, because Israel is about to be attacked, and a huge number of troops from Russia and Iran are coming toward Israel to destroy it, and what happens?”
Rosenberg: “Well, God is going to move. You won’t find in the Scriptures that the United States is coming to rescue Israel or the European Union, but God says he is going to supernaturally intervene — we’re talking about fire from heaven, a massive earthquake, diseases spreading through the enemy forces. It is going to be such a clear judgment against the enemies of Israel that Ezekiel 39 says that it will take seven months to bury all the bodies of the slain enemies of Israel. “
Such standard-issue Evangelical prophetic cocksureness is an excellent example of why a magisterium is so useful and necessary.
Not only does the magisterium help us know what is essential to the faith, it also helps us remain free of what is unessential. For the various species of Protestantism, in addition to denying real biblical truths such as the Real Presence or infant baptism, also have a tendency to invent “biblical truths” that do not exist and impose them by means of a sort of cultural pressure via charismatic preachers with pet theories who, in their own sphere, are granted an infallibility the Pope could never dream of.
Now, a Catholic is quite free to have a kooky private reading of Ezekiel 38-39 as a prophecy of the “coming resurgent Soviet Union” and its alliance with Muslims, communist Chinese or whoever, all in a vast Cecil B. DeMille battle against Israel. The Church has all sorts of room for eccentrics, and everybody needs a hobby.
But a Catholic is not free to go around telling everybody that “this is the clear teaching of the Bible” and demand it be believed. For the fact is, this kooky theory is emphatically not the clear teaching of the Bible, nor does it have any sanction whatsoever from the Church, the tradition, the Fathers, the councils or the popes. It is a pure novelty we can and should ignore.
What we should not ignore is Rosenberg’s claim that, “Given the events going on in our world today, people at the Pentagon, people at the CIA, people at the White House are asking to sit down and talk about these issues, to understand the Biblical perspective, because it is uncanny what is happening out there and it deserves some study.”
I suspect that Rosenberg is exaggerating his clout with the big cheeses in DC. I doubt that the Pentagon’s intel meetings are dominated by exegeses of Ezekiel 38.
But I do think it matters if a significant portion of the American polity drinks in such bizarre theories as if they were God’s revealed Truth.
Ideas have consequences, especially crazy ones. Most crazy ideas do no harm.
Crazy ideas about the Middle East, backed by the force of arms, stand a better than average chance of killing millions.
All I did was show the other very similar side of the exact same coin.
If the sauce is good for the goose, it should be good for the gander.
I was grieved by what seems like a very unwarranted response from you.
Of course, if your desire was to be merely humorous and tweaky, that’s fine with me.
But it seemed like you were being unnecessarily deliberately tweaky and stabby—and that as painfully as you could come up with at the moment. Which surprised me . . . a lot.
Oh, allergy meds are the only ones I take. Haven’t forgotten them.
Have been trying to carve time to do an expanded book review of that one for their approval for posting here . . . for months. Sigh.
The busy-ness of life.
lol did it take you all day to pen that? I’m beginning to think you’re Leo Tolstoy in disguise!
Interesting analysis of the proper care and feeding of Sacred Cows- couldn’t have said it better myself- so let’s fire up the grill! moo! And the exchange about ‘magidstrium’ and ‘charismaniacs’ was excellent.
It seems that no matter what level one operates on, the issues are the same under the surface. Whether it’s a debate on the validity of certain doctrines, or convincing the unadventurous members of a church to build a paintball field for evangelism (my last assignment), it appears to be the same conversation.
Be blessed Quix!
Amen and Amen!
1 Timothy 3:15And then, there's this:if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Matthew 18:17Now where is Luther's doctrine of "The Bible Alone" in the Bible?If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
You're right.
Example?
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that all God’s people may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
At first blush, it seems like a slam dunk. But consider the following questions.
Scripture equips a man "for every good work," but are good works sufficient for salvation?
What constitutes Scripture? The Catholic canon or the Protestant canon?
Was the New Testament canonized when Paul wrote this letter?
Which canon of the Old Testament was Paul referring to at the time of his writing? The Septuagint or the Alexandrian canon?
Who determined that this letter of Paul to Timothy constituted Scripture?
When?
By what authority?
Does that authority exist today?
Did this authority exist at the time of the Reformation?
"God's People" is actually better translated as "the man of God." Does this phrase refer to priests/deacons?
______________________________________________________
Also consider these passages in light of Luther's doctrine of "The Bible Alone": 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 18:17
Now, now. I do respect your beliefs, friend.
How many do you need?
Which one? The Catholic canon or the Protestant canon?
By what authority did Luther remove the deuterocanonical books of the Bible? The Bible? That's not logically possible. So he must have used an extra-biblical standard for determining the canon of Scripture. What was it? And where did he get the authority to do so?
Unless anyone thinks that the Holy Spirit just dropped a book from the sky, I don't know how they could miss this unless they just want to.
If God wanted to He could write the scripture in the sky for all to see but throughout Salvation History He has used mankind to tell us what He wants us to know. Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, just to mention a few from the OT. Then Jesus came to us as a man and still he didn't write us a book, He taught and ministered and then entrusted His teaching to mere men. But they were not alone, they had been given the Holy Spirit and the Church is still not alone, the Holy Spirit resides in her and the people of God.
Jack Chick materials - including links - are not allowed because they are hate speech. It doesn’t matter if the poster is on the sending or receiving end of the hate speech.
Do you mean the Church which makes this unscriptural claim?
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
And then, there's this:
Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Now where is Luther's doctrine of "The Bible Alone" in the Bible?
246 posted on 06/13/2007 6:21:59 AM MDT by Aquinasfan
Psalm 118:9 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.Psalm 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
b'shem Yah'shua
Thanks tons for your kind words.
No, but it took more hours than it should.
I thought I was pasting html codes and it turned out I was pasting major blocks of text. Took an hour or two to sort that out in MS WORD. The result was 66 pages of a lot of redundancy. Sheesh!
The writing is usually the easiest . . . if it’s something that feels, seems fitting to my spirit. Or, if I just have ‘la dudze’ of the fingers.
So I appreciate folks helping me with a reality check on which it was.
Thanks for being a faithful Bro.
And for all you do for The Kingdom, including paint ball fields.
Relative to your post. . .
It reminds me of a lot of the questions the . . .
RELIGIOUS
leaders of Christ’s dusty pathed days
asked Him.
Didn’t you leave out the angels on a pinhead question?
I respect your right to your beliefs and a good number of your beliefs, too.
However, you chose to push an issue strong and hard. And, I believe the issue you were pushing was bogus, hollow, hypocritical.
So, I illustrated that with the other side of the same coin you presented.
Then, it occurred to me I’d left out a key part.
That’s all.
**************
Quix, I believe you have me confused with someone else.
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