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To: Claud
Show me one, ONE primary source document from the 4th century that supports this claim. Or 5th century. Or 6th century. Where can I find this reported Eusebius? Sozemen? Take your pick of Late Roman historians, and find me one that says anything like this at all.

Show me where the title "Pontiff" or even "Pope" was ever used by a Bishop of Rome before Constantine????

54 posted on 06/07/2007 8:24:33 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
What's more striking of a claim, the title of Pope, or the authority of the Pope? You could call the bishop of Rome a ham sandwich and it still wouldn't affect what he is. But if you're asking me for a quote before Constantine that shows the *authority* of the Bishop of Rome, there's no better than that of Irenaeus of Lyons, ca. A.D. 170.

2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html
60 posted on 06/07/2007 8:43:26 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Uncle Chip; Campion
Show me where the title "Pontiff" or even "Pope" was ever used by a Bishop of Rome before Constantine????

Ummm...when did modern English get started?

Pope is merely an English rendering of the Latin "papa" (or Father).

Peter implied it (1 Pet 5:13) -- She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark. (how would Mark be his son unless he was Mark's father?)

Paul explicitly stated it (1 Cor. 4:15) -- For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

You do realize that the Patriarch of Alexandria is also identified as "pope," right?

The term "pontiff" was a term of state (a State-recognized religious office), not purely of religion. It was used by the Roman Emperor until the time of the Emperor Gratian. The title went vacant until Pope Damasus I in 366 AD. (note: Constantine died in 337 AD. Constantine did NOT make Christianity the official State religion of Rome. Theodosius I did so in 391 AD).

Oops, sorry, I forgot...historical reality doesn't exist outside of Hilsop.

64 posted on 06/07/2007 9:16:08 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: Uncle Chip
Show me where the title "Pontiff" or even "Pope" was ever used by a Bishop of Rome before Constantine????

"Pope" comes from the Greek "papas" ... "Daddy".

The Latin word pontifex ("pontiff") simply means an important religious leader, in any religion. All Christian bishops are pontifices in church Latin.

The Latin Vulgate translates the term for "Jewish High Priest" (Kohen Gadol in the Hebrew; I'm not sure what it is in the Greek) as pontifex Judaeis, the "pontiff of the Jews".

The title pontifex maximus ("supreme pontiff"; the usual title of the head of the Roman state religion) was not given to the Bishop of Rome by Constantine, but by Theodosius the Great, almost a century later.

Theodosius was also the man who was such a sincere Christian believer that he ended the Olympic Games because they were "too pagan".

I have no idea why you think a Christian emperor giving the title of "supreme bishop" to a Christian bishop proves there was any change of doctrine, and I doubt you do, either.

72 posted on 06/07/2007 10:52:06 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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