Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[AnAmericanMother]

My grandfather in law was a Methodist minister for 70 years . . . I have 3 different versions of the Methodist Hymnal (both before and after the reunification of the Methodist Churches), and they all have the order of service in the back. Without exception ALL include the Lord's Prayer. They are published by "The Methodist Publishing House (founded 1789) - Official Hymnal of the Methodist Church." My in-laws are still Methodist, and when we go over there to visit them, the service always includes the Lord's Prayer.

The Presbyterian Order of Worship includes the Lord's Prayer . . . at my grandparents' church when they were alive, and at my daughter's best friend's church. I have no idea if her church is PCA or PCUSA, but they are considered one of the more orthodox Presby congregations in Atlanta.

Those are the regular prayers and orders of service for those denominations, not outdated or off the wall. I believe you are attributing what appears to be the peculiar local custom of your congregation to Protestants at large.

[AnAmericanMother]

My absolutely favorite Oliver Cromwell Quote.

Did you know they keep his head over at Sidney Sussex College? It's in pretty bad shape.

[AnAmericanMother]

Wow! Guess I'll offer up one for the Poor Souls tonight.

If the dog barks at 3 a.m., I'll know why.

I have all the spiritual sensitivity of a half ton of pig iron, I could probably have a roomful of Poor Souls and I'd never know it.

[AnAmericanMother]

Whoa! Wish I'd thought of that during childbirth!

(actually, thanx and a hat tip to the BVM, St. Gerard Majella, and everybody else. It couldn't have gone better if we had ordered it custom.)

[tiki]

Uh, yeah.

[tiki]

Oh yes, since 2000.

[pjr12345]

The biblical example among the early believers was to celebrate it weekly on the first day of the week; that’s what I do.

But I’ll not throw stones at your remembrance.

[pjr12345]

In the various non-RCC churches I’ve attended we’ve never recited the so-called Lord’s Prayer. It is viewed as the “Model Prayer”, to be used as for form and content, but not as vain repetition.

[N3WBI3]

So in other words we are being told two things, do not make a point for self promoting public prayer (look at me pray) *and* dont pray by just repeating the same thing over and over again.

[N3WBI3]

Salvation,

Christians are not supposed to fear those that can physically harm us (e.g. Muslims) we are supposed to bring the word to them.

[higgmeister]

You understand correctly. Praying the "Hail Mary" is the main point of difference with the "Holy Roman Church."

I was raised Methodist. My Great Great Grandfather donated the land for a local Methodist church in Alabama where all my line up to me are buried.

I have been on retreat at the Cistercian Trappist Abbey of Gethsemani. I watched the endless prayers at Vespers and got up at 3:AM to observe the monks at Vigils. I was a youth counselor at a Catholic Youth Home where I got used to calling a priest "Father" without being to uncomfortable. I even helped the boys learn their Rosary for Catechism, where I learned the words myself by heart.

That is as close as I'll ever get to praying the Rosary. I have no malice against it and I admire the traditional Mother Church for currently being a positive influence over humanity.

From being taught all your life to pray to "The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit", it is to great a leap to now believe that Mother Mary will also put in a good word for you too. Additionally, Protestants believe also that the Apostles and Saints haven't interacted with mortal man since biblical times either.

[N3WBI3]

“I have to disagree. Vain is also defined as “having or showing undue or excessive pride in one’s appearance or achievements” (M-W) and in the context of the chapter, it makes sense when used in that way.”

Sandy, that would matter if the verse was written in English and not Greek. In Greek the word used that is translated vain has not second meaning which implies vanity.

[pjr12345]

Meditating on the mysteries... more like waiting for the time to pass.

When I was a RCC altar boy, I’d often have to “serve” during special prayer meetings (usually noveena’s). Other than a few introductory comments by the priest, EVERY prayer was a canned prayer, and often we prayed the rosary. The meeting seemed more like a race to see who could mumble the words fastest, and nobody beat the blue-haired old widows wearing way too much perfume. To this day I can walk into a RCC mass and whip off the prayers with no thought whatsoever. AND IT’S BEEN OVER TWENTY-FIVE YEARS since I was in the RCC

[higgmeister]

I think I already apologized.

Yes, I saw that later, thank you! You know how we so often jump in without looking through all of the replies. I apologize for that too.

[Uri’el-2012]

the biblical example among the early believers was to celebrate it weekly on the first day of the week; that’s what I do.

But I’ll not throw stones at your remembrance.

207 posted on 06/05/2007 9:48:31 PM MDT by pjr12345

Remember He celebrated Passover where
He offered Himself as the Passover Lamb
to be slaughtered for our sins and said
He would not drink the fourth cup of wine
( the cup of Blessing) until we join Him
at a the marriage Feast of the Lamb.

He died on hag Matzoh when all sin (leaven)
is removed and rose from the dead on the
third day for it was day of the celebration
the Feast of First Fruits( when the first
of the harvest) is offered to YHvH, which
is always the day following the shabbat
following Passover.

b'shem Yah'shua

[tiki]

My father had been raised Catholic but my mother was anti-Catholic. He kept his prayer books and his rosaries and he kept them in his night stand but nothing good was ever said about Catholicism. My brother was killed in a car wreck 2 days before his 17th birthday and though he didn't let my mother see the first thing my father went for was his rosary.

Fast forward 30 some years, my father had passed away and my son had all of the stuff my mother left behind when she moved. He was going to have a yard sale and he told me to come get what I wanted. By the end of the day I was exhausted and I saw a little box with my father's rosaries. I just told him don't sell this but I'm just exhausted and I can't go through anymore stuff.

Another year or so passed and one day I had this urge for my father's rosaries and I mean I wanted them right then. I ran down my son and I was almost hysterical that maybe he had thrown them away. He's like "Mom, calm down. They're in there." There were about 5 rosaries, most of them broken, a few chaplet bracelets, and some medals. I took them out and looked at them and figured out that there were supposed to be 10 small beads and a large one and my son fixed the broken ones and I put them back in the box and took them home, and didn't think about them again...until the day I got the copy of "How to say the Rosary"

So anyway, I slowly started saying the Rosary, then out of the blue a friend that I'd hardly seen for a few years called me one night. She said that she and some friends had started a prayer group and asked if I wanted to come. I only said yes because she was a friend and seemed to want me to and then she hesitated and added, uh, we say the rosary. I think I joined the Church about 3 years after that.

[pjr12345]

Very cool. Thanks!

[tiki]

In my Methodist Church we were taught to believe in “the communion of the saints.” We said the Apostle’s creed on regular Sundays and the Nicene creed on communion Sundays.