I Looked at the Early Church and There Wasn't a Baptist in Sight [Ken Hensley]

Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission ^ | 1997 | Lesley Payne

[trisham]

No good ever comes from these kind of contentious threads unless you just need your “suffer for the faith” fix for the day. I guess some people just want to fight.

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I sometimes think that these threads are, as you say, contentious, which is why I often decline to participate in them. It may be, however that there are those who are inspired by them, yet they do not post in response.

Then again, sometimes I find myself inspired.

[Uriah_lost]

I’m of the opinion that if you need to be “talked into” your faith, you can and will be talked out of it.

[trisham]

I’m of the opinion that if you need to be “talked into” your faith, you can and will be talked out of it.

************

I don't know. I can't imagine being anything but Catholic, but others may be different. Perhaps this is one of the ways that someone does God's work.

[swmobuffalo]

“Well at least you aren’t wasting your bashing on Baptists.”

haven’t bashed anyone here or did you forget your sarcasm tag?

[tiki]

Maybe I did forget my sarcasm tag. Let's look at what you said.

The Catholics weren’t present either.

Doesn't sound like Baptist bashing to me.

Protestantism came about because folk got tired of the nonsense promoted by Rome.

Doesn't sound like Baptist bashing to me.

The true church doesn’t reside in Rome. It resides in the hearts and minds and works of true believers REGARDLESS of denomination.

Doesn't sound like Baptist bashing to me.

[SeaHawkFan]

I wasn’t wondering. I knew “First Baptist Church” was NOT a denomination.

I was just trying to point out the poor wording in the article. It should have stated “The First Baptist Church of __________” rather than “a First Baptist Church”. Imagine my surprise when a few people actually thought “First Baptist Church” is a denomination.

[Titanites]

Imagine my surprise when a few people actually thought “First Baptist Church” is a denomination

Like whom?

[Greg F]

And when you find the infallibility of the Pope in the Bible call us Protestants, pronto! ; )

Remember that Sola Scriptura doesn’t deny the Church (i.e. the understandings of your fellow Christians) as a source of knowledge, nor does it deny the Holy Spirit. It only says that if anyone makes a claim which contradicts scripture then that claim is not true, and that if anyone makes a claim that is not supported in scripture but does not contradict scripture, then that claim may or may not be true, regardless of the title of the person with the insight. I am a Catholic friendly Protestant (and a former Catholic). Protestants may say what they will about scripture, but every Protestant Church teaches what scripture means in some form (and this is basically tradition/church/apostolic succession/or holy spirit as a source for truth in understanding the word of God) — but they do not rightfully claim absolute knowledge of the truth without scriptural support. It’s a nuance that cuts both ways in a debate. The important questions are — “Do you believe that Christ allowed himself to be crucified in payment for your sins? Do you believe that he rose again on the third day? Have you repented of your sins? Do you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?” If the answers are yes, then YOU are the Church. As John Paul II stated in “Crossing the Threshhold of Hope”:

“I would suggest a reading of Saint Augustine, who often repeated: “Vobis sum episcopus, vobiscum christianus” (”I am a bishop for you, I am a Christian with you”; cf., for example, Sermon 340.1: J. P. Migne, ed., Patrologia Latina 38.1483). On further reflection, christianus has far greater significance than episcopus, even if the subject is the Bishop of Rome.”

And I’ll take his word for it, in part because it is supported by the word of God in scripture, and in part because John Paul II is my elder and wiser brother in Christ, who I hope to meet one glorious day in a glorious new world.

[swmobuffalo]

So your point is what?

[tiki]

I don’t know, you tell me. I just pointed out that you weren’t Baptist bashing.

[alpha-8-25-02]

FOR ALL YOU CHART LOVERS!

EXPLANATION OF THE CHART By DR. J. M. CARROLL

ILLUSTRATING the History of the Baptist Churches from the time of their founder, the Lord Jesus Christ, until the 20th Century.

1. The purpose of this book and chart is to show according to History that Baptists have an unbroken line of churches since Christ and have fulfilled His prophecy --

"I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT." In the irregular churches is clearly seen the growth of Catholicism and Protestantism. Baptists are not Protestants since they did not come out of the Catholic Church.

2. The numbers at the top and bottom represent 20 centuries. The first vertical line is A.D. 1, and the second, A.D. 100, and so on.

3. The horizontal lines at the bottom have between them the nicknames given to Baptists during the passing years and ages -- Novations, Montanists, Paulicians and Waldenses.

4. THE RED CIRCLES REPRESENT BAPTIST CHURCHES beginning with the first Church at Jerusalem, founded by Christ during His earthly ministry, and out of which came the churches of Judea, Antioch and others. The red indicates they were persecuted. In spite of the bitterest opposition and persecution Baptist Churches are found in every age. The first nickname given them was Christians, the next Ana-Baptists, and so on. You will notice that the dark ages are represented by a dark space. Even during this time you will notice a continual line of churches called Ana-Baptists. They were continually and bitterly persecuted even unto death by the Catholics. Near the first of the 16th Century the Ana was dropped and they were simply called Baptists.

5. THE BLACK CIRCLES REPRESENT CHURCHES INTO WHICH ERROR CAME AND ARE THEREFORE CALLED -- IRREGULAR CHURCHES. The first error was in church Government--Pastors assumed authority not given them by Christ. Pastors of larger churches claimed authority over other and smaller churches. Thus in the 3rd Century the Roman Hierarchy was established. The Emperor Constantine issued a call in 313 inviting all churches to send representatives to form a council. The red churches--that is Baptist Churches--refused the invitation but the irregular churches responded. The Emperor was made the head and thus the group of churches known as irregular churches became the State Church. The Emperor continued to head the churches until Leo II claimed authority as the successor of Peter. Thus is seen how the error in church Government developed into Popery. In the 16th Century the Protestant Churches began to come out of the Roman Catholic Church. They are called Protestants because they protested against the errors of Catholicism.

6. It was in the year 251 that Baptist Churches declared nonfellowship with the irregular churches. They refused to accept Baptism administered in infancy or for Salvation and thus came the oldest nickname--Ana-Baptists which means rebaptizers.

5 SOLAS!

[George W. Bush]

Ken Hensley was a pastor of a First Baptist Church prior to becoming a Catholic.

I've never heard of these First Baptists. Do they have a conference and convention like other Baptists?

I'm not sure why one of Scott Hahn's classmates following him into apostasy should surprise anyone. Over a century ago, there were a similar series of betrayals known as the Oxford Movement.

Oxford Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[George W. Bush]

Carroll's Trail Of Blood isn't accepted by a majority of Baptists. Many of us do recognize a constant Baptist strain in ancient churches and study the history of some of those murdered as heretics by the Roman Catholic church over the centuries.

I don't think Carroll's timeline is supported by any notable Baptist scholar or secular authority.

[alpha-8-25-02]

allways looking for more church history,if you have a link!

[wmfights]

Many of us do recognize a constant Baptist strain in ancient churches and study the history of some of those murdered as heretics by the Roman Catholic church over the centuries.

I think it may be impossible to prove a continuous Baptist Church per se. However, you can find throughout history churches that shared common Baptist principles; believer's Baptism, equality of believer's, separation of church and state and the Scriptures being the sole authority in the church.

One book I found that was very informative was "Baptist Church Perpetuity" by W.A. Jarrel

[streetpreacher]

"I looked down at the cover of the tape," says Hensley, "and it said 'by Scott Hahn.' My eyes almost popped out of my head. Scott Hahn had been an old friend of mine in seminary. I came home and listened to the tapes. I gave Scott a call in Steubenville and said, `What's going on with you? I can't believe you've become a Catholic!' He and I began to talk. I was opposed to Catholicism, but I became committed to the idea that I had to study it through, to be sure I was right to be a Protestant. Scott led me to many titles of books. Over a period of about four years, I became more and more convinced that I would have to leave the Protestant church."

If someone can talk you into it, someone can talk you out of it.

1 John 2:18-19 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John 15:16a 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain...

[Uri’el-2012]

Allah is simply the Arab word for God (THE ONE GOD). Given that Mohammed’s revelation owes so much to the Jews, perhaps the best way to thing of it as a distortion of Judaism. To me it seems as related to Judaism as Mormanism is to Christianity.

20 posted on 06/03/2007 11:15:19 PM MDT by RobbyS

Allah is not the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Israel !

b'shem Yah'shua

[Titanites]

I've never heard of these First Baptists. Do they have a conference and convention like other Baptists?

Just Baptist, as noted in the keywords I posted with the article. I was in a hurry when I made that post and should have cleaned up my cut and paste. I'm sorry it caused you to be confused along with several others.

[Titanites]

Allah is not the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Israel !

Have you told the Arabic speaking Christians? If so, I suspect you received some ridicule.

[Titanites]

Other than your chart not being accepted by many Baptist scholars, it has at least one serious flaw. Either the Eastern Orthodox or the Eastern Catholics have been left off (I’m not sure which the “Greek Catholic” arm is supposed to represent, but it can’t be both since the 22 Eastern Catholics are in communion with the Western Church).

Also, it looks like someone took 10 minutes to scratch this out on the back of an envelope. Isn’t there a better version?