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Posted on 05/30/2007 7:39:38 AM PDT by Frank Sheed
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That argument, too, depends on selective perception. While Benedict certainly wants to call the church back to some Catholic fundamentals, evidence of a systematic lurch to the right is hard to come by. This is the same pope, after all, who scandalized Catholic traditionalists by jettisoning limbo and by praying alongside the grand mufti of Istanbul inside the Blue Mosque in Turkey. On the political front, Benedict has demanded debt relief for impoverished nations, said that “nothing positive” has come from the United States-led war in Iraq, and denounced capitalism as an “ideological promise” that “has proven false.”
Quod erat demonstrandum.
John Allen seems to be in a bit of a snit over this departure from the post Vatican II mass. It’s odd, since I am not aware that there has been a call to end the Norvus Ordo. Am I wrong in this?
Excellent article, btw. :)
Dennis Prager claims he’s usually bored to tears with liturgy and so reads Jewish books while in synagogue.
Unfortunately, for all his political conservatism, Dennis Prager is not an Orthodox Jew, and he at one time was a militant member of the "peace camp" with regard to Israel.
The trouble with liturgy is that it so often descends into ritual pantomime. This is why the most highly ritualized religions are the most inclined to dismiss religious truths as highly abstract and expressed as metaphors rather than as facts. Thus Catholic and Orthodox priests have no difficulty in reciting words during their liturgies that refer to events they don't believe actually happened. In fact, a Catholic or Orthodox priest could be an agnostic and one would never know from his performance of the ritual, since a certain school of thought holds that religion is primarily ritual, with "myth" of only secondary importance.
"Jewish liturgy" doesn't really exist without the Holy Temple. Jews recite an order of prayers (and btw, it would be a serious sin to invoke an event that didn't really happened, or to thank G-d for doing something He only did in a fictional story). When the Holy Temple is rebuilt and the `Avodah resumed, then the world will witness genuine "Jewish liturgy" again!
I see Prager representing his well.
Next year in Jerusalem!
The problem is he doesn't adhere to it, and he doesn't always represent it, as when he questions halakhot based on allegedly "superior" modern reasoning.
Well, good for that, but you're not going to get the truly kosher position from him.
Orthodox Judaism does not hold that non-Jews are "fine just where they are" but that they must reject all other religions and subscribe to the Seven Noachide Laws (with all that that implies). Non-Jews must give up all false religions, rituals, and holidays and adhere only to true Noachism as interpreted by traditional Rabbinic Judaism. While Mr. Prager's teachings certainly contain parts of the truth there is also (unfortunately) much adulteration.
BTW, "struggling with G-d" doesn't mean "new" or "progressive" understanding of the Torah given by G-d to Moses. All such struggles must be done within the Torah as authentically passed down, taught, and interpreted by the traditional sages.
Only zoroastrians and bahais (so far as I know) teach that all religions are simultaneously true or that people should stay in the religion they were born into.
You might forgive however, that I guess I realized the bulk of my answer from your prior posts even as I posted that last.
Thanks, your Ladyship!
F
How could there be such a ting as “bad liturgy”? Don’t Catholics go to mass to see the sacrifice of Calvary and the “actual” body of Christ? Can anything be “bad” about that ?
Seems to me if it is what the catholic church says it is the very presence of God would draw millions by His presence. Music or no
What in the name of the Good Lord does Dennis Prager or Judaism have to do with a thread on the Tridentine Mass with the topics including Catholic Liturgy, Catholic Theology and the Tridentine Mass?
Hijack another thread, dudes!
**************
Nothing?
The trouble with liturgy is that it so often descends into ritual pantomime. This is why the most highly ritualized religions are the most inclined to dismiss religious truths as highly abstract and expressed as metaphors rather than as facts. Thus Catholic and Orthodox priests have no difficulty in reciting words during their liturgies that refer to events they don't believe actually happened. In fact, a Catholic or Orthodox priest could be an agnostic and one would never know from his performance of the ritual, since a certain school of thought holds that religion is primarily ritual, with "myth" of only secondary importance.
Why onedoug was here and why he invoked Dennis Prager I have no idea. Perhaps you should label this thread "Catholic Caucus" if you don't want non-Catholics to comment.
I will take this in the "literal sense."
True, the Mass is an entering into the One and Eternal Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary which goes on "outside" of time. It is "bad liturgy" in the sense that it is sometimes celebrated irreverently or profaned by various practices that have crept into the Mass or done by the celebrant (e.g., Clown or Polka Masses; inviting people to the altar during the consecration who have no right to be there). In the broadest sense, your sense I take it, the Mass is always perfect. Even if the priest is in serious sin, the Mass is still valid since it is Christ who is the real High Priest acting through the priest and it is He who appears through the mystery of Transubstantiation. So, you do have a solid theological point.
Seems to me if it is what the catholic church says it is the very presence of God would draw millions by His presence. Music or no
This is true also. God is present, true. The profanation, however, is distracting and sacrilegious in that the Divine is being treated in a common fashion. This is the point that is being made. The Catholic maxim is "Legem credendi statuit lex orandi." This is Latin meaning “the rule of prayer determines the rule of faith. Or, more simply, how one prays demonstrates what one believes.
Post 16 was relevant. It commented on liturgy in a manner that contributed to general discussion. The tangent therefrom was not.
Frank Sheed
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