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Do stop behaving as if you are God, Professor Dawkins
The Mail On Sunday (via VirtueOnline) ^ | 5/18/07 | Alister McGrath

Posted on 05/21/2007 10:05:04 AM PDT by Frumanchu

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1 posted on 05/21/2007 10:05:07 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

Pinging to some friends regarding militant atheism.


2 posted on 05/21/2007 10:07:55 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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To: Frumanchu

How about sending our aetheistic professor to the Middle East and convince them first.


3 posted on 05/21/2007 10:08:38 AM PDT by theDentist (Qwerty ergo typo : I type, therefore I misspelll.)
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To: Frumanchu

The ‘reason’-based Dawkins sounds very emotional in his arguments, doesn’t he?


4 posted on 05/21/2007 10:14:01 AM PDT by atomicpossum (Replies must follow approved guidelines or you will be kill-filed without appeal.)
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To: Frumanchu
"If this book works as I intend," he says, "religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down."

Then this "scientist" knows nothing about behavioral psychology. At all.

5 posted on 05/21/2007 10:14:38 AM PDT by wideawake ("Pearl Harbor is America's fault, right, Mommy?" - Ron Paul, age 6, 12/7/1941)
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To: Frumanchu
It's always interesting to see these ivory towers types go at it. The arguments always sound so reasonable. Alister McGrath is probably correct in his assessment of Dawkins.
Here's my read, FWIW.

IMHO, Professor Dawkins is an angry, unhappy man whose anger and unhappiness have little to do with God. It probably started with his early childhood and was reinforced by parents, family and a personality that was inclined to see the world perversely, obstinately and arrogantly.

But, hey, that's my Amateur Psych 101 opinion and though it's worth diddly to most, it might be correct. Bet it is, mostly.

6 posted on 05/21/2007 10:16:55 AM PDT by starfish923 (Socrates: It's never right to do wrong.)
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To: Frumanchu

Hmm, Dawkins must be about to fall into that pit he digged for us.


7 posted on 05/21/2007 10:27:26 AM PDT by ksen ("For an omniscient and omnipotent God, there are no Plan B's" - Frumanchu)
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To: starfish923

I’m just going to go a step further, and while the term is no longer used formally, say that Dawkins is bordering on sociopathy.


8 posted on 05/21/2007 10:35:17 AM PDT by verum ago (The Iranian Space Agency: set phasers to jihad!)
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To: Frumanchu
Maybe that's why some of the fiercest attacks on The God Delusion are coming from other atheists, rather than religious believers. Michael Ruse, who describes himself as a 'hardline Darwinian' philosopher, confessed that The God Delusion made him 'embarrassed to be an atheist'.

Actually, I think the fiercest attacks come from within the church by liberal theologians who would either purposely or unknowingly lead the masses away. Extreme atheists, as noted by Mr. Ruse, tend to be embarrassing.

9 posted on 05/21/2007 10:39:14 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
Actually, I think the fiercest attacks come from within the church by liberal theologians who would either purposely or unknowingly lead the masses away. Extreme atheists, as noted by Mr. Ruse, tend to be embarrassing.

I agree. The most damaging and devious attacks on the Truth come from those who identify themselves with the church while working feverishly to attack every foundational pillar they can.

10 posted on 05/21/2007 10:45:51 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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To: HarleyD

Dante reserved the ninth circle for them.


11 posted on 05/21/2007 10:48:29 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Frumanchu
Guillermo Gonzalez & Jay W Richards, The Privileged Planet: How Our Place In The Cosmos Is Designed For Discovery
12 posted on 05/21/2007 10:53:01 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Frumanchu

Very interesting


13 posted on 05/21/2007 10:58:22 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Frumanchu; Alamo-Girl; marron; betty boop

Dawkins is on a crusade, however, I find him refreshingly honest with his either/ors about evolution.

He clearly states that evolution makes God obsolete, and that the 2 are incompatible beliefs.

For a variety of reasons, I agree with that.


14 posted on 05/21/2007 11:03:13 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; Frumanchu; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
evolution makes God obsolete, and that the 2 are incompatible beliefs.

My personal opinion, for what little its worth, is that creation is on-going, and we are a key and necessary element in the process.

And that evolution, depending upon how you define it, is just a tool in the toolkit.

That God is creator doesn't even enter into question for me. So the only question is "how". Thats where the sciences come in. Since God's existence isn't in question, however the evidence falls out doesn't disturb me, it intrigues me, it interests me, if it seems to be going in an unexpected direction I don't worry about it. There are people on both sides of the question who believe that, if evolution can be proven, God will vanish, and so the whole question takes on a desperate existential quality that it doesn't merit, with each side believing that God's existence hangs in the balance.

All that hangs in the balance is our understanding of how God goes about his business, and we need to know, because our business is to make use of what we learn. Its a big universe out there, and God gave it to us. Or, well, he is in the process of giving it to us. Our job is to learn how it operates.

One thing we should be very clear on is that while "science" digs up bits of information every day, there is no way that we will know all there is to know this year or next or in our grandkids' lifetimes. Anyone claiming to have final and complete scientific understanding is just being argumentative. All I care to guess is that the picture that unfolds is going to be even more astounding than we can guess. I can't wait. I won't live to see the really cool stuff half a century or a century down the line, I'll have to watch from the grandstands on the other side, I imagine.

15 posted on 05/21/2007 11:47:50 AM PDT by marron
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To: Frumanchu
Dawkins often compares belief in God to an infantile belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, saying it is something we should all outgrow.

I've never understood why atheists say, "should". What basis does a materialist have for emoting that the universe or some aspect of it (in this case, a 'belief')ought to be something other than what it is? If the physical universe is all there is and that's where beliefs come from after all, and that's all beliefs are made of, then where does he get his imaginary standard by which he measures beliefs and determines that some of them don't meaure up. Measure up to what?

How can the universe produce something "wrong" with itself?

Cordially,

16 posted on 05/21/2007 12:32:22 PM PDT by Diamond
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To: xzins; marron; betty boop
Thank you both so much for sharing your insights!

I assert that if one considers our space/time coordinates v the inception space/time coordinates (relativity and inflationary theory) - the incompatibility between evolution and creation is a perception and not real.

17 posted on 05/21/2007 12:45:19 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: marron
There are people on both sides of the question who believe that, if evolution can be proven, God will vanish, and so the whole question takes on a desperate existential quality that it doesn't merit, with each side believing that God's existence hangs in the balance.

Lovely essay/post, marron!

18 posted on 05/21/2007 12:48:23 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
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To: Frumanchu
For instance, Dawkins often compares belief in God to an infantile belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, saying it is something we should all outgrow. But the analogy is flawed. How many people do you know who started to believe in Santa Claus in adulthood?

The analogy is just fine. The difference is that there is not a stigma attached to believing in God and there is no way to "prove" he doesn't exist, since all the payoff is when you are dead. It's standard to treat adults who believe in Santa with pity and ridicule and we're secure in that because we can prove he doesn't exist every Christmas morning when we don't get gifts from him and neither do our kids. The reason no one seriously claims to believe in Zeus or Jupiter is that people would treat them as crazy. There's no real logic to the separate responses.

Dawkins can no more 'prove' the non-existence of God than anyone else can prove He does exist.

The thing is, the burden of proof is on you, not on us. I don't have to prove that unicorns and leprechauns don't exist, either. The default is that unless you can prove something to be true, it isn't true.

Most of us are aware that we hold many beliefs we cannot prove to be true. It reminds us that we need to treat those who disagree with us with intellectual respect, rather than dismissing them - as Dawkins does - as liars, knaves and charlatans.

Society doesn't treat those with unsubstantiated beliefs with praise. Only unsubstantiated beliefs that the particular society has adopted, which makes it totally relative. We call people kooks and crazies and nutjobs and such all the time for believing in things that have been accepted by society as nonsense. We here at FR laugh at Rosie every time she talks about the Bush Administration blowing up the WTC. We at FR think Allah and Mohammed's supposed divine association with him are ridiculous, too.

19 posted on 05/21/2007 1:11:00 PM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: Diamond
How can the universe produce something "wrong" with itself?

Dawkins answered your question. You are saying that belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy should not be criticized for not measuring up. Do you really believe that statement? Belief in those two things came from the universe (which was your argument), after all. Not all ideas should be treated equally, with equal respect.

20 posted on 05/21/2007 1:16:20 PM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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