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To: Uncle Chip
Preterists try to make a distinction between physical and spiritual Israel, as if it is one or the other, but the Israel of God is both. Those who are just physical descendants with out concomitant faith in the Word of their God will find themselves outside of the Kingdom of God.

Actually, all covenant theologians have affirmed that they are "both," and your attempt to drive a divide between physical and spiritual Israel as a teaching is simply false. The terms of the covenant were that the entire physical nation of Israel WOULD BE obedient to the covenant. However, there are clear statements within the Old Testament that repeated the threat that the disobedient and unbelieving would be "cut off" from their people. So, then, it is not "preterists" who highlight that it is possible to be a physical descendant of Abraham and NOT a recipient of the covenant blessings. God himself declared it. Indeed John the Baptist mocks the reliance on physical lineage when he calls the disobedient leaders "sons of snakes." The covenant blessings were for the "seed of the woman" which was ultimately Christ, of course. God further narrowed this to the "seed of Abraham" when He made the covenant promises to him. Indeed, Galatians says that God "preached the gospel" to Abraham by telling him that in HIS seed all the families of the earth would be blessed. Romans tells us that Abraham believed that promise and was justified, just like WE believe in the already unfolded promise, and are justified. One people, one message, one set of promises, one faith, many nations, with one physical group in the forefront.

The idea of a wooden "distinction" between physical and spiritual Israel is false, and the idea of a wooden distinction between the physical sons of Abraham and the spriritual sons of Abraham is also false. They are one. The promises to Abraham HAVE ALL MET THEIR FULFILLMENT in Christ. The idea that God has to get the "church" out of the way to fulfill his promises to "Israel" is simply unbiblical. Take out that lynchpin and all the stuff about premillineal raptures and the weird weird stuff you see in the dispensational rubric simply melts away because there is no need for it. The TRUE Israel (aka "the remnant") was always the church, and the church is the true Israel. ALL of the earliest church were Jews, and hopefully, there seems to be good cause in Romans to look for a greater revival of the Jews "back in" to the true faith, which should result in a conflagration of a worldwide "super revival" (or "life from the dead" as Paul puts it). Amen. Bring it, Lord Jesus, and bring it now.

That said, there is NO reason to assume that the promises made to Abraham's seed are restricted to a wooden literalism, especially when the Old and New Testament declare clearly that they are made to the children of Abraham's FAITH. Get that colossal error out of the way and the entire case for dispensational end times theology collapses.

186 posted on 05/22/2007 7:13:35 AM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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To: DreamsofPolycarp

The End Time’s primary purpose is the reconcilation between Israel and God.

God’s convenent with His people still stands.

Roman 11:1 So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! ...

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel18 until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.”

In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy.


190 posted on 05/22/2007 7:34:08 AM PDT by pacelvi
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To: DreamsofPolycarp
The promises to Abraham HAVE ALL MET THEIR FULFILLMENT in Christ.

Partially true. The Abrahamic Covenant is meeting its fulfillment in Christ, and that fulfillment will culminate in the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel by the Messiah who will reign from the city of Jerusalem, as promised. It is not just past tense as Preterists are addicted to but past, present, and future.

191 posted on 05/22/2007 7:39:48 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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