Posted on 05/21/2007 1:31:42 AM PDT by bruinbirdman
If Christians would simply study the New Testament themselves – instead of relying upon 21st Century “prophets” writing fictional books for 21st Century profits – they would arrive at a few very simple conclusions:
1. The Revelation to John was written around 65 AD, not 95 AD.
2. The anti-Christ was Nero, not some world figure yet to emerge in the 21st Century.
3. The tribulation occurred in the First Century around the time of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD.
4. The “rapture” never happened and it never will.
5. The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 plainly reveal that most of the discourse in The Revelation to John is based on events in the First Century.
Gee, I've read and studied the whole new testament and I can't seem to find any of those things.
Do you have a more "up to date" version than I do. I have the KJV.
Great article.
John
Agreed, 2 entirely different events and at different times.
Its one of the most compelling arguments to me and one
easily understood.
Can you point to any early church father who held to the position that Nero was the Anti-Christ or that the book of Revelation was written before AD90?
GOD NEVER CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT THE PROMISES MADE TO ISRAEL!!!!! Paul deals with this categorically in Romans 4, 9, and 11. Note that I did not say promises made to the NATION OF Israel. No such promises were made. The promises were made to the "remnant" or the "true" Israel, who were the people of faith. NO promises were EVER made to those who were physical descendants only of Abraham. It is improper to say God "changed his mind" about the promises made to anyone, and no promises were made to those who were only of the physical lineage of Abraham. Again, this is the clear and unmistakeable message of Romans 4. It is the children of Abraham's FAITH who are his children, and that has been expanded to include the "uncircumsised" believers as well as the Jews who believe. Your remarks about Sproul (under whom I studied, btw) show that you don't understand spiritual Israel at all, because having an understanding of spriritual Israel has NOTHING to do with whether you are Pre mil or not. Again, although sproul is amil, George Eldon Ladd was premil but rejected the false dichotomy between church and Israel that the dispensationalists insist on.
Indeed? Where do you find such support? Is it in the same verses used to support a secret rapture?
The present group of atheistic Shemites could be driven into the Mediterranean Ocean and the Temple levelled and covered over with the Dome of the Rock, and it would not violate one scintilla of biblical prophecy re: the end times.
I don’t buy that either. I think there is good internal and external evidence to date the book at about 90 ad or so. I also think it is a mistake to look for either Domitian or Nero as “the antichrist.” I do believe there will be a “man of sin” in the end days who will deceive and persecute, and that lots of little antichrists (as per: I John) have and will arise. The reformens saw the Pope as the figure told of re: the antichrist, and I think they were right. However, he was not THE antichrist. There will be lots of bush leaguers before the main kahuna shows up.
None: They already changed it back in 70 AD.
BigMack
Reformed Theological Seminary
And tell me EXACTLY what you know about "REFORMED THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY" My guess is "not much."
.....That would be a strike against him in my book.
Neither Lex Luthor nor Martin Luther did any such thing. It would be a strike against the great theologian of marvel comics and against the leader of the protestant reformation if either of them had done such a thing.
You’ve already been called out for your dishonest use of the term “secret rapture”. Why use it again? You’re not going to pin that one me.
Here’s support for the physical state of Israel in the end times...
“They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Specifically, “... Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled... And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory”
After the destruction of Jerusalem, the city would be controlled by Gentiles for a lengthy period “the times of the Gentiles” and then, by implication, would revert back to the Jews before the great tribulation and the return of Jesus.
“Neither Lex Luthor nor Martin Luther did any such thing. “
I don’t know about Revelations or Hebrews - I’ll have to look that up. But I know for sure the called the book of James the “epistle of straw”.
“Neither Lex Luthor nor Martin Luther did any such thing....”
Oops... looks like it’s true!
In my daughter’s sixth grade Confirmation class (LCMS), she was taught that Martin Luther thought that the New Testament books of James and Revelation were not correct and should not be included in the Bible. I had never heard this. I did see reference to the book of James in your Q&A section on Martin Luther but no mention of Revelation. Can you clarify all of this for us?
Luther’s controversial writing concerning the Epistle of James and the Revelation can be found in Volume 35 of Luther’s Works, American Edition, pages 395-397 and 399-400.
An excerpt from his “Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude” — “...I praise [the Epistle of James] and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God.... However, ...I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle, and my reasons follow.
“In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works [2:24]....
“In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ....
“In a word, he wanted to guard against those who relied on faith without works, but was unequal to the task. He tries to accomplish by harping on the law what the apostles accomplish by stimulating people to love. Therefore I cannot include him among the chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him,”
Lutherans generally do not agree with Luther’s devaluation of this epistle.
An excerpt from Luther’s earlier preface to Revelation: “About this book of the Revelation of St. John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.
“First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel.... I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it....”
In 1530, Luther revised the Preface, but had not really changed his view regarding Revelation:
“...Some of the ancient fathers held that it was not the work of St. John, the Apostle.... For our part, we still share this doubt. By that, however, no one should be prevented from reading this as the work of St. John the apostle, or of whomever else he chooses....”
Lutherans generally do not agree with Luther’s devaluation of the book of Revelation.
When Luther wrestled with the question of whether these books belong in the canon of scripture, he was not questioning the inspiration or the authority of god’s word. The question for him was what is properly part of God’s Word.
As with other questions of faith and doctrine, Luther is never the final authority.
http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/luther-03.html
************
Initially Luther had a low view of the books of Esther, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. He called the Epistle of James “an epistle of straw,” finding little in it that pointed to Christ and His saving work. He also had harsh words for the book of Revelation, saying that he could “in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.”[3] He had reason to question the apostolicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation because the early church categorized these books as antilegomena, meaning that they were not accepted without reservation as canonical. Luther did not, however, remove them from his editions of the Scriptures. His views on some of these books changed in later years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible
Er, uh, I don't know if I would mock someone by sneering that dispensationalism is a part of "2 millenia of Christian interpretation." It was absolutely unheard of before Darby in 1830. There is NO biblical evidence for a 2 stage coming of Jesus. There is NO biblical evidence for a restoration of a geopolitical nation of Israel as the people of God in the "end days." There is NO biblical evidence for almost any of the fanciful speculations and charts insisted on by dispensationalists. You have to have your charts and timelines in hand and then hammer the texts to "fit" them. You would never get there from a plain reading of the text.
And that is precisely why NO ONE EVER DID before the Darby hooked up with Edward Irving, a heretic presbyterian who got "tongues" and held camp meetings known for wild frenzied "prophesying." At one of these meetings, a Scottish milkmaid named Margaret McDonald had a "vision" where she informed the faithful that 1800 millenia of Christian study was WRONG and that Christ would NOT come back all at once, but would come in a "secret" way to sweep away his true believers before the end came (which was imminent, by the way, all the "signs" pointed to it!). The history of this person and influence on Darby is abundantly demonstrated documented and laid out in numerous places. I understand there are some sites on the web which reference this. I have not seen them, but did first hand research on this some years ago.
So actually THERE is your innovation and new theology. An ignorant, unlearned Scottish milkmaid in a fit of religious ecstacy, learned first hand from the Holy Spirit (who needs the bible, anyway?) that ALL the theologians who studied this stuff were WRONG and she had the key. Darby picked up on this and incorporated it into his "Plymouth Brethren" doctrine. Scofield wrote a series of study notes to put in his "study bible" and the rest is history..... but just the last 180 years or so of it.
Again, there is NO mention of this stuff before John Darby. NONE. The only reason dispensationalism caught on in America (and almost nowhere else) is because we have probably the historically most biblically ignorant group of Christians in history. Anything sounds good when you don't know anything.
Amen.
He certainly never hurled James into the Elbe river as unbiblical, as he did sections of the apocrypha.
These are all about the same event... all at the close of Daniel’s 70th week of years (7 years).. the end of which is the coming of Messiah. Messiah will rule Earth from the Nation of Israel.
Zechariah 12
The revelation of the word of the Lord concerning Israel The Lord – he who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth, who forms the human spirit within a person – says, “I am about to make Jerusalem a cup that brings dizziness to all the surrounding nations; indeed, Judah will also be included when Jerusalem is besieged. Moreover, on that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy burden for all the nations, and all who try to carry it will be seriously injured; yet all the peoples of the earth will be assembled against it. In that day,” says the Lord, “I will strike every horse with confusion and its rider with madness. I will pay close attention to the house of Judah, but will strike all the horses of the nations with blindness. Then the leaders of Judah will say to themselves, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are a means of strength to us through their God, the Lord who rules over all.’ On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like an igniter among sticks and a burning torch among sheaves, and they will burn up all the surrounding nations right and left. Then the people of Jerusalem will settle once more in their place, the city of Jerusalem. The Lord also will deliver the homes of Judah first, so that the splendor of the kingship of David and of the people of Jerusalem may not exceed that of Judah. On that day the Lord himself will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like mighty David, and the dynasty of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. So on that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.”
“I will pour out on the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn. On that day the lamentation in Jerusalem will be as great as the lamentation at Hadad-Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, clan by clan – the clan of the royal household of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the clan of the family of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the clan of the descendants of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; and the clan of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves – all the clans that remain, each separately with their wives.”
Ezekiel 38:14
“Therefore, prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says On that day when my people Israel are living securely, you will take notice and come from your place, from the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a vast army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud covering the earth. In the latter days I will bring you against my land so that the nations may acknowledge me, when before their eyes I magnify myself through you, O Gog.
“‘This is what the sovereign Lord says Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days that I would bring you against them? On that day, when Gog invades the land of Israel, declares the sovereign Lord, my rage will mount up in my anger. In my zeal, in the fire of my fury, I declare that on that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the wild beasts, all the things that creep on the ground, and all people who live on the face of the earth will shake at my presence. The mountains will topple, the cliffs will fall, and every wall will fall to the ground. I will call for a sword to attack Gog on all my mountains, declares the sovereign Lord; every man’s sword will be against his brother. I will judge him with plague and bloodshed. I will rain down on him, his troops and the many peoples who are with him a torrential downpour, hailstones, fire, and brimstone. I will exalt and magnify myself; I will reveal myself before many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’
Dan 12:4
“But you, Daniel, close up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will dash about, and knowledge will increase.”
I, Daniel, watched as two others stood there, one on each side of the river. One said to the man clothed in linen who was above the waters of the river, “When will the end of these wondrous events occur?” Then I heard the man clothed in linen who was over the waters of the river as he raised both his right and left hands to the sky and made an oath by the one who lives forever “It is for a time, times, and half a time. Then, when the power of the one who shatters the holy people has been exhausted, all these things will be finished.”
I heard, but I did not understand. So I said, “Sir, what will happen after these things?” He said, “Go, Daniel. For these matters are closed and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made clean, and refined, but the wicked will go on being wicked. None of the wicked will understand, though the wise will understand. From the time that the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination that causes desolation is set in place, there are , days. Blessed is the one who waits and attains to the , days. But you should go your way until the end. You will rest and then at the end of the days you will arise to receive what you have been allotted.”
“I believe his comments on James Hebrews and Revelation (which he included in his translation of the Bible, by the way), should be viewed in this light.”
I’ll take that as an admission.
:)
That is literal. In that context, a week is 7 years.
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