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House Dems repudiate Pope’s abortion remarks
The Hill ^ | May 15, 2007 | Jonathan E. Kaplan

Posted on 05/14/2007 5:19:23 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...

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121 posted on 05/15/2007 9:50:17 PM PDT by Coleus (Woe unto him that call evil good and good evil"-- Isaiah 5:20-21)
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To: Alex Murphy
A group of House Democrats yesterday publicly repudiated the Pope’s recent suggestion that politicians who support abortion rights should be excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church.

That old pesky conscience must be bothersome.

122 posted on 05/15/2007 10:11:44 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Balding_Eagle
The Catholic Church is following the people. Frustrating.
They are supposed to be leaders, not followers. Where where they 30 years ago? Hiding under their alters, so no one could find them.

I don't know where you've been, but the Church has been very vocal against abortion since 1973, immediately after Roe-v-Wade. That's why pro-abortion activists tried to have the pro-life idea dismissed as a 'religious' argument, since, at the beginning, the Church was behind much of the opposition to abortion.

123 posted on 05/15/2007 10:20:00 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Balding_Eagle
When they catch up to where I am I may rejoin.

I understand that sentiment. But, for its worth, I think you have a duty to be there, to support the Church even when it is going through its lowest periods. We talk about 'fair weather fans', but the kind of loyalty we owe to the Church is incommensurably greater than what we owe to any sports team. If everyone simply bailed 'until things improved', the Church would, if it were possible, just fade away. But our continued presence and example may be part of that which is necessary for helping the Church through her times of weakness and darkness. The gifts that we each have been given are to be shared. And if your gift is moral superiority, then even this is a gift to be shared with the Church, for the good of the Church. "If one part suffers, every part suffers with it." (1 Cor 12:26) We should suffer *with* the Church, not from the sidelines. And when one part is missing, every part misses its effects. Just some thoughts, for what its worth.

-A8

124 posted on 05/15/2007 10:39:37 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Alex Murphy; NYer; Pyro7480; ELS; Siobhan

Well the Pope wants them excommunicated, and most people I know think they ought to be shot. So I’d say they come out on the easier side of things with the Pope.


125 posted on 05/16/2007 12:14:43 AM PDT by Maeve (Do you have supplies for an extended emergency? Be prepared! Pray!)
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To: F.J. Mitchell

“The Dims will try to twist this into a case of the Pope violating the non existent separation of church and state clause”

Since when do individual constitutions of various countries have authority over the religious leader of a worldwide religion?

The complete ignorance of how the Church operates and the authority of the Pope regarding teachings of the Church is astounding.

The democrats are starting to resemble the commies in China who managed to establish themselves as church authorities (pretty amusing considering their atheism and all...)


126 posted on 05/16/2007 4:58:05 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: ELS

By 2004 any reasonable person could see that churchgoers had already been ‘onboard’ for many years to refusing communion and more to abortion supporters.

I put quotes around ‘onboard’ because no one in the church had provided an ‘onboard’ platform for them to stand on. The congregation members built that platform, and the church leaders were the ones who finally got onboard.

Prove my above assertions wrong by showing me where the churches led the way in the 70’s, 80’s or even the 90’s (when the pro-life movement began to really sway public opinion) by putting some teeth into supporting the doctorine of life.

You can’t, because the record is what it is, a shameful record of what they didn’t do.


127 posted on 05/16/2007 5:41:30 AM PDT by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years.)
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To: adiaireton8
I understand that sentiment. But, for its worth, I think you have a duty to be there, to support the Church even when it is going through its lowest periods.

We did that to our children with that same evil argument about the public schools.

I'm very slow at times, but not stupid. I'll never purposely make that mistake twice.

128 posted on 05/16/2007 5:48:38 AM PDT by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years.)
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To: Alex Murphy

So separation of church and state means that the Pope and bishops must give up their rights of free speech? As Mitt Romney correctly pointed out, the Catholic Church is a private association, and Catholic bishops can do or say whatever they want.


129 posted on 05/16/2007 6:30:32 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Scotswife

Amusing indeed.


130 posted on 05/16/2007 6:36:37 AM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (`Trust the DNC and MSM only after scrutionization through the lens of a maggotfrying glass.)
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To: Balding_Eagle
Dear Balding_Eagle,

I’m hesitant to enter this discussion, especially on the side of the bishops, because frankly, the bishops’ records have been far from glorious on this issue, and what’s more, it’s lots easier to bash them than to defend them.

Nonetheless, I think that perhaps you paint with too broad a brush.

The first thing to make clear is that your view of a monolithic response from Catholic bishops towards the politics of abortion is false.

The response of bishops to the politics of abortion ranges everywhere from non-existent to excommunication. There are some bishops who seem to have said little about “Catholic” politicians and people who are involved with politics who embrace pro-abortion views. We also have Bishop Bruskewitz who formally excommunicated members of so-called “Catholic” pro-abortion groups in his own diocese. He did that about a decade ago, a few years into his reign in his diocese. The Vatican has upheld his actions.

There are also some bishops who have called out pro-abortion politicians by name and told them that they might not receive Holy Communion.

These are few in number, but they refute the idea of a monolithic response.

As well, many bishops have stated generally that pro-abortion politicians should not approach Holy Communion. Although they haven’t singled out specific politicians for specific bans, they have spoken out and stated clearly that pro-abort politicians should not receive Holy Communion. There are many bishops who have done this, including Cardinal O’Malley of Boston.

I believe it’s fair to criticize this set of bishops that they haven’t gone far enough. Rather than expressing a general rule, my view is that they should take the time to specifically ban specific persons from Holy Communion, as some other bishops have done.

It isn’t quite practical to formally ban by name ALL pro-abort politicians, but perhaps each bishop could take the top ten offenders in his diocese.

However, dealing with the specific politics of abortion shouldn’t be primarily the role of the hierarchy. Participation in the political arena is primarily the work of the laity. Thus, it is right that it should be the laity who take the lead in the politics of abortion. The bishops have taught clearly and specifically what are the teachings and principles of the Church in this regard. One could wish for more spine from them where the political intersects the ecclesiastical, but it’s false to say they have done nothing or have not done anything to help lead the way.

Beyond the strictly political, the bishops, collectively, have done other things regarding abortion. Since the late ‘70s or the ‘80s, the movement in many dioceses to provide assistance to women in crisis pregnancies has enjoyed the support, spiritual, emotional, and financial, of many bishops.

This extends to efforts in this area by non-Catholics. I worked with a Protestant pro-life organization back in the early 1990s. Its leaders told me flat-out that it was members of the Catholic hierarchy and Catholic laity who helped them get off the ground in their initial efforts in the 1980s.

Now, it’s true, this didn’t make any headlines. It’s true that if I mentioned the name of the organization, not many Catholics, not many folks at all would recognize its name. Nonetheless, it provides support for a couple of thousand crisis pregnancy centers.

The bottom line is that many of our bishops HAVE lent significant support to charitable works to assist women in crisis pregnancies. Many bishops feel more comfortable performing this more traditional role - doing works of charity - in relationship to abortion than getting out in front of the politics of abortion.

Thus, many of our bishops have led in important ways on the issue of abortion. For a very long time.

Could they, should they have done more? I believe that they should have.

Did they do nothing? Did they entirely abdicate their leadership role? No, they didn’t.

Could all of us have done more?

Probably.

I know I could.


sitetest

131 posted on 05/16/2007 7:10:14 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: M203M4

I love this graphic! Thanks for the laugh.


132 posted on 05/16/2007 7:13:18 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: Darkwolf377
The Catholic Church has taught specifically against abortion since the 1st Century AD. Lots of Early AD quotes here.

There was never a moral question about whether it's the crime of homicide to deliberately kill a living human being. There did remain a fact-question concerning embryology: when can we know that there is a living being in the woman's womb?

Until fairly recently, there was no way to know until the woman felt movement.

Even a few centuries ago, the common medical guess was that the father's semen coagulated in the womb, like curds forming in milk, stuck together in clumps until it formed a baby-shape about as big as a walnut, and then the baby-shaped clump came alive and started kicking mama!

So, knowing that any sabotage of God's work in the creation of new life is morally wrong, the Church said that the destructive interruption of pregnancy at any stage is always a serious sin; and additionally, if you knew that the baby was alive, it's murder.

Since the discovery of DNA and the observation that fertilization constitutes Day One of every human person's lifespan, the Church (being reality-based) teaches that all embryo-killing is murder.

133 posted on 05/16/2007 7:33:11 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Whatever things are true, whatever are noble, just, pure, lovely--- brethren, think on these things.)
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To: All
House Dems Excommunicate the Pope
134 posted on 05/16/2007 11:11:37 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: Balding_Eagle
I haven't. When they catch up to where I am I may rejoin. Their change on abortion is a good start.

OK, Pope Balding_Eagle.

135 posted on 05/16/2007 3:13:05 PM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: sitetest
Could all of us have done more? Probably. I know I could. sitetest

Same here. Amen.

136 posted on 05/16/2007 3:19:15 PM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: frogjerk
OK, Pope Balding_Eagle.

I'm no Pope, not ANY kind of church leader, not even a Sunday School teacher or member.

I no longer attend church.

Why should I? Our 'leaders' have been AWOL for many, many years.

For the past decades the congregations led the way through the abortion wilderness. They've been left to find their own way, because the 'leadership' either lacked the knowledge, or more likely the courage to do what had to be done.

I'm ever so grateful that the Pope and other church 'leaders' have decided to follow in the footsteps of their 'flock'.

Quotes around 'leaders' and 'flock' due to our upside-down religious world.

137 posted on 05/16/2007 4:11:06 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years.)
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To: sitetest

Thank you so much for that post.

I will accept everything you said at face value, (because I want good news on this issue) and I am so pleased to hear about things I have not heard about before.

The only history I know (until your post) is a history of ‘do nothing’.

There IS hope, in fact there WAS hope all along.

Thank you again. Your post made my day.


138 posted on 05/16/2007 4:18:17 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years.)
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To: Balding_Eagle

Thanks.


139 posted on 05/16/2007 5:08:34 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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