Posted on 05/09/2007 10:01:17 AM PDT by NYer
Francis Beckwith’s announced return to the Catholic Church has generated an avalanche of invective and revilement from evangelicals. I have been stunned by what I have read. It is clear that in the minds of many the Catholic Church remains the hated Antichrist. To enter into her communion is to abandon the faith of the Apostles and to jeopardize one’s eternal salvation.
But some evangelicals have responded with sobriety and directed their reflections to the important theological differences between Catholicism and evangelicalism. Guy Davies, a Welsh Reformed preacher, identifies justification by faith as the crucial difference between the two traditions:
The Roman teaching on justification is that we are justified by grace at baptism. But this initial justification must be improved by our works. Does this understanding of justification really have greater ‘explanatory power’ than the Protestant view? Where in the New Testament is justification related to baptism? In the teaching of Paul, we are justified by faith apart from works. God’s declaration that we are right with him in Christ cannot be improved upon. The Roman Catholic teaching is not straightforward justification by works, because it is held that we are graciously justified at baptism. But the notion that our justification by grace must be supplemented by works is at best semi-Pelagian. The Catholic teaching downplays the seriousness of sin and calls into question the the freeness of God’s grace. Perhaps the Evangelicals and Catholics Together movement (here) has had the effect of blurring the dividing lines between Rome and the Reformation over justification? The new perspective on Paul has had a similar effect.
Davies rightly notes that the Catholic Church teaches that sinners are justified by grace, decisively communicated to the person in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism. But he asks, “Where in the New Testament is justification related to baptism?” Here we see the terrible reductionism of sola scriptura at work. Scripture is ripped from the eucharistic life of the Church and becomes a free-floating entity to which the beliefs and practices of the Church are then subjected according to alien hermeneutical criteria. For all within the eucharistic community the intrinsic connection between justification and baptism/Church is so manifest, so obvious, so clear, that no prooftexts from Scripture are needed. To be baptized is to be incorporated into the Church; to be incorporated into the Church is to be made a member of the body of Christ; to be made a member of the body of Christ is to be adopted as a son in the Son and regenerated in the Holy Spirit; to be adopted in sonship and regenerated in the Holy Spirit is to be elevated into the divine life of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. St Augustine saw clearly the union of justification and theosis:
It is clear that He calls men gods through their being deified by His grace and not born of His substance. For He justifies, who is just of Himself and not of another; and He deifies, who is God of Himself and not by participation in another. Now He who justifies, Himself deifies, because by justifying He makes sons of God. For to them gave He power to become the sons of God. If we are made sons of God, we are also made gods; but this is by grace of adoption, and not by generation. (Ennar. In Ps. 49.2)
Life in the Church is life in the Holy Trinity, and this simply is our justification. If a person cannot see this when he reads the New Testament, there can be only one response: read it again but this time read it with the Church and her Eucharist. It might also be noted that significant advances along these lines have been made in Lutheran-Orthodox ecumenical discussions (see One with God: Salvation as Deification and Justification by Veli-Matti Kärkkäinen).
But the New Testament is hardly silent on the relation of baptism and justification, though the relation between the two may not be as explicit and obvious as our evangelical brethren would like it to be. Peter Leithart notes two passages in particular:
At least twice, Paul makes a direction connection between baptism and justification. Having reminded the Corinthians that they had been the kind of people who do not inherit the kingdom, he goes on to remind them that they are no longer such people: “but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of God” (6:11). Is Paul taking about water baptism when he refers to “washing” or to some spiritual and invisible washing? I believe the former; the phrase “in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ” echoes the baptismal formulae of Matthew 28 and Acts, and the reference to the Spirit also links with baptismal passages (Acts 2; 1 Cor 12:12-13). This whole passage is in fact embedded in a baptismal formula: “you were washed . . . in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Note too that Paul marks the shift from what the Corinthians “were” to what they “are” by a reference to their baptism. They have become different folk by being baptized. What, though, is the relationship between the baptism and sanctification and justification? The connection here is not absolutely clear, but I suggest that sanctification and justification are two implications of the event of baptism. The pagan Corinthians have been washed-sanctified-justified by their baptism into the name of Jesus and the concommitant action of the Spirit.
Romans 6:7 is another passage where Paul links baptism and justification. He who has died, Paul writes, is “justified from sin.” And when, in context, does one die? “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life” (vv. 3-4). Baptism into Christ means baptism into death; those who have been baptized have been crucified with Jesus; and those who are dead in and with Jesus have been justified from sin. Here, “justify” carries the connotation of deliverance from the power of sin. Through baptism, we die to our natural solidarity and society with Adam and brought into solidarity with and the society of Jesus.
I cite Leithart because he is a Reformed scholar. Lutheran, Anglican, and Catholic testimony could be quickly produced, but would also be just as quickly dismissed by evangelicals. Having recently re-read Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, I truly wonder how anyone can miss the union of justification and baptism. Do evangelicals stop at Roman 4:25? How can they not see that Paul’s discussion of justification in the first four chapters must be interpreted in light of Paul’s subsequent discussion of the death and resurrection of the believer in baptism and his rebirth in the Holy Spirit? They do not see, because they are reading their Bible through evangelical spectacles. There is a blindness that only the healing of Eucharist and the authentic teaching of the Church can cure.
In the conclusion of his short article, Leithart makes a turn which Martin Luther would have thoroughly approved:
There is a key difference between the Word declared in the gospel, and the declaration effected by baptism. The Word offers the favor of God generally; baptism declares that God favors me in particular. If baptism is not the public declaration of justification, where does that public declaration take place? Is it ever heard on earth, about me in particular? Is it heard anywhere but in my heart? … It appears to me that justification by faith and forensic justification are difficult to maintain apart from a strong view of baptismal efficacy, without saying that in baptism God Himself says something about me in particular.
I would want to significantly expand the relation between justification and baptism (Leithart would also, I’m sure), but this is a good place to begin. As soon as one sees the intrinsic connection between justification and baptism, the New Testament begins to read very differently. Perhaps Dr Beckwith had this in mind when he wrote on his blog: “Even though I also believe that the Reformed view is biblically and historically defensible, I think the Catholic view has more explanatory power to account for both all the biblical texts on justification as well as the church’s historical understanding of salvation prior to the Reformation all the way back to the ancient church of the first few centuries.”
The apostles creed is a humanist crutch that has no spiritual meaning. Your faith can move the mountain, or not.
Well, they're wrong.
They were allowed to remain in their ignorance by priests who didn't preach the Gospel. They were allowed to remain in their sins by priests who didn't tell them to make a good confession monthly.
(How many of those ex-Catholics really went to confession monthly? I'll bet ... zero.)
They were allowed to remain far from God by priests who didn't tell them that daily prayer and Bible study aren't really optional. They were allowed to know the frustration of trying to do the impossible by priests who didn't tell them the fundamental and very Catholic truth that we do nothing and conquer no sin apart from a trusting, childlike faith in the grace of God.
And most of the time, those priests did those things primarily because they wanted to be popular and not "rock the boat".
But most of all, your exes allowed themselves to do and to be all of those things by their own laziness and sinfulness, and their own cowardice in running away rather than demanding ... forcing ... insisting that priests and bishops teach them real Catholicism.
I'm a cradle Catholic, ETH. I lived through the garbage catechesis of the years immediately after Vatican II, catechesis that could just as well have been tailor-made by Satan to lead people out of the church.
I know exactly where they're coming from: I lived it. There but for the grace of God go I, hmm.
But some time spent reading and studying and searching out good spiritual leadership didn't hurt, either. It's there in the Catholic church, but it takes some courage and effort to find it.
Well, yes, actually, what you're doing is exactly the same as what Trent did, except that (if you look in the liturgy of the anathema) they consigned the anathematized one to the mercy of God and made it clear that it was only "in our judgment" that he was damned.
While you seem to think you can pronounce sentence with the authority of the Almighty.
Well, not exactly.
But it is to knowingly accept unbiblical doctrine. It is to exchange the clarity of the words of the Apostles for the words of a biased group, the magisterium.
But you know that he’s passed over others just to pick you.
I can’t imagine how that feels.
God Himself did, haven't you been paying attention?
What, do you think he is like other men?
For that sort of heresy, you will surely burn in Hell! Or so say the Chosen Ones! ;-)
Campion, if it weren’t for Catholic posters like you, I probably would not come on this forum again.
What you have written in this post could be part of my own autobiography.
It was worth all the struggle in the years following Vat. II—the struggle to persevere and to love this Church and this faith with a love that can’t die, with God’s grace to help me. I thank God that I—and my house—came through and remain.
And yes, it takes reading and Scripture and prayer and Confession and the Sacraments. Always has and always will.
Thanks once again.
Humbling and unworthy .
But now you are superior and pridefully declaring yourself to be so. It is unimaginable to this lowly Christian.
The canons themselves are in force. The penalty of "anathema" doesn't exist in the 1983 CIC, so the anathema sit penalty clause is inoperative. But the errors condemned remain errors. Post 27
Two questions please: 1. How does the "since 1983" reconcile with the Vincentian Canon without reclaiming the split of east and west? Leaving Trent et al out of it, I'm just looking at such a major statement on its own. 2. As to the those within the church, Who is "within the church" given we are speaking of the "Church Visible" (I'm use to this 2nd question being ignored by NYer, so I won't be offended, if you speak only to my first question)?
God dose not abandon or orphan us, He loves us as His children. He is our Father and the perfect, loving Father He left for us a visible Church which has authority, in fact in matters of the faith , perfect authority.
If you take a look Matthew 18:15-17, you will find that it is the Church that has the authority to settle disputes. Like wise, it is the Church alone that is promised perfection, take a look at Matthew 16:18, what is hell but imperfection made present, it is the embodiment of all that is not perfect. The Church, as Christ promised is perfect (its members, however are sinners, every one). But where is the Church? She is with Peter and the Apostles, they alone were given the power to bind and loose, and peter alone was given the keys and a particular commission to feed and teach His sheep and lambs.
The Revelation of the fullness of the message of salvation flows only through Christ to His Apostles and the Church, this is not to say that you and other believers are not in possession to some understanding of the Gospel, but it is an understanding burdened by a self imposed limitation, specifically the abandonment of the Church in favor of the novel idea of sola scriptura. Take for example your use of 1 Corinthians in reference to the authority to judge, it is no wonder that you made no use of the fourth chapter of that book, it serves you not. We are called to judge that which can be observed objectively, but not in the role of the Eternal Judge but for our own good, avoidance, and for the good of the sinner, to help call that sinner out of darkness ( a work of grace, the kind James wrote about).
God gave us the Church, through which He gave us the full canon of Scripture, a tool which the Church uses to instruct us on the good news of salvation, such a tool should not be used to whack a brother about for sport or self aggrandizement.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/mayweb-only/119-33.0.html
Unplug your ears and listen. You keep talking to yourself. He does NOT believe what you are saying he believes.
Of course he was talking to the Church, Of course the Holy Spirit is speaking today. But read the book of acts naively and see that always the Way was taught by people OF AUTHORITY. And how did they acquire that authority? By association with those who are presented in Acts as having authority, those, in other words, who were inspired. The Word leapt from person to person, most often by people steeped in the JEWISH Scriptures AND inspired by God. We do not know what taught Apollos—Scripture doesn’t say— but SOMEONE did, and his teachings were sanctioned by someone who know was inspired by God,that is Paul. And according to Acts, Paul who claimed to an independent revelation of truth nonethless always went back to the Church to report and to substantiate that his words were those of the Church and so were the words taught in the church communities he founded.
As to the those within the church, Who is "within the church" given we are speaking of the "Church Visible"
This is somewhat complex. I would direct you to Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Book 4, part 2, chapter 5 on the necessity of membership in the church.
My understanding is that someone would be considered a Catholic at least from the POV of church discipline (not necessarily from the POV of soteriology) who has been validly baptized, has professed the Catholic faith (or is not yet old enough to do so), and has not "defected from the [Catholic] faith by a formal act". (That would include, among other things, publicly adhering to another religion.)
Someone born into a Protestant family and raised professing a Protestant faith would probably be validly baptized, but would not have professed the Catholic faith, and (if there were any doubt of that) probably regularly "defects from the [Catholic] faith by a formal act".
And I thank God that he is not like all other men, not even like me, a poor sinner. :-)
(Allow me to gush about your communion a moment. I used to hang out on an Orthodox list ... it was pretty heavily a ROCOR list, but there were other Orthodox there, too. Oh, yeah, we butted heads ... some of them even did the Luther imitation and trashed the Pope as antiChrist, etc.
But y'all have the Christian humility thing and the imitatio Christi down. You understand it at a deep level. There would be posts there from holy Orthodox priests with brilliant theological and patristic insights ... signed "Fr. Maximos, an unworthy sinner".
I didn't always agree, but I grew to admire and appreciate.)
Better times are coming. Keep the faith!
“The Catholic teaching downplays the seriousness of sin”. What a load of nonsense this is. It is my experience having been to numerous different Protestant, Evangelical and Pentecostal Chruches that the Catholic Church is far more serious about sin and it’s effect on us and those around us! To infer that Catholic baptism and the Catholic’s doctrine of justification somehow allows it’s adherence to think less of sin is stupid at best in fact I find the reverse to be true.
Mel
If the ultimate success is to lead the lost soul to Christ, who am I to criticize which branch of service is joined - if I truly am the servant I claim?
Not that I intend to accommodate you by prolonging the exchange but each and every Scriptural citation in your #21 can be used against your position by Catholics as easily or more so than you use each of them in apparent advancement of the "reform."
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