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To: Mad Dawg; wideawake; sandyeggo; Pyro7480; NYer
Also it doesn't sound to me like you submitted. You can say you did but I hear you saying that you held onto some belief about how to approach Scripture which is not a Catholic belief. That's not submission, as far as I can tell. You're saying something like,"I'll agree with you about YOUR stuff, if' you'll agree with me about mine," and the Church said, "No, we don't agree with your approach to Scripture," so you said, "Oh, no deal, I'm outta here." -- or something like that. If that's anywhere near the truth, it's sure not submission, it's bargaining, or what am I missing?

So you're admitting that the Catholic Church officially teaches evolution and the Documentary Hypothesis, right? Thank you for your honesty.

I gave up sola scriptura and have never gone back. But according to you that isn't enough. I had to admit that the Bible doesn't always tell the truth. I had to believe that the creation account of Genesis is mythology and is an amalgam of pagan creation myths from the ancient middle east. So much for your "unchanging" church.

Listen to me, Sunshine: No one, and I mean NO ONE has the right to say G-d says things that aren't so. And if you really believed in Him at all you wouldn't dare say imply such a thing.

You know bo-diddley-squat about my six years in the Catholic Church or what I went through trying to be loyal. I didn't even leave the Church when I was first told to go because it was the "one true church." And I had to go directly to mass after being told that because it was a holyday of obligation. And after that I attended an eastern rite Catholic Church until I did leave, and that was almost five months later, during which time I submitted as much as my conscience allowed me to.

Meanwhile your church welcomes abortionist politicians, Marxists, and homosexuals, but you tell me that I was in rebellion. I accept that. Too bad I was a literalist instead of a homosexual. In that case they'd have fought tooth and nail to keep me.

Go back to your Darwin and your Wellhausen, blasphemer!

105 posted on 05/07/2007 12:48:42 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Koh 'amar HaShem: 'Arur hagever 'asher yivtach ba'adam vesam basar zero`o, umin-HaShem yasur libbo!)
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To: wideawake; sandyeggo; Pyro7480; NYer

Finally, I notice that this whole thread is celebrating the return to the Church of a man who says he still subscribes to an Evangelical “sola scriptura” mission statement and is choosing to “err on the side of the Church.” That you are turning flips over this guy while scolding me for my refusal to become a higher critic and evolutionist shows what a hypocrite you truly are.


106 posted on 05/07/2007 12:55:31 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Koh 'amar HaShem: 'Arur hagever 'asher yivtach ba'adam vesam basar zero`o, umin-HaShem yasur libbo!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; Mad Dawg
So you're admitting that the Catholic Church officially teaches evolution and the Documentary Hypothesis, right? Thank you for your honesty.

That's unfair.

However, MD, having known ZC for some time I have to say that the Church failed him.

I cannot agree with his decision to leave the Church, but many pastors and laymen make it extremely difficult for people who believe in true doctrine - like the complete inerrancy of Scripture - to be comfortable in the Church or accepted as they should be in the Body of Christ.

I have been personally berated by priests for refusing to assent to heresies they falsely told me were Church teaching.

I was dressed down at my pre-Cana workshop - by a priest! - in front of my fellow workshoppers for standing up for the Church's teaching on contraception and sodomy as both practices were being advocated from the pulpit of a church - mere feet away from the tabernacle.

It is a wonder and a blessing from the Holy Ghost that more people like me were not driven into the arms of non-Catholic groups that actually take the Scriptures and morality more seriously than so many local parishes do.

People like ZC are not the problem. People like Thomas Gumbleton and his enablers are the problem.

110 posted on 05/07/2007 1:18:07 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Go back to your Darwin and your Wellhausen, blasphemer!

I get that you think I'm a very bad man. Clearly we have a disagreement. I don't get why that means you are right to jump to conclusions based on careless readings of what I write.

And it STILL doesn't sound like you submitted. I don't know what the official stand of the Catholic Church is on Evolution and on the methods (as distinct from some of the hypotheses) of higher criticism.

I get that you think I'm an evil person and that I am saying things I don't have a right to say. I DON'T get that you understand or even care to understand what I actually mean to say.

It's just a matter of logic to say that there is a contradiction between saying you submitted to the church and then when it said something you disagreed with about how to read Scripture you left.

I Think the request for the name of the bishop who asked you to leave still stands. If I don't know anything about your six years in the Catholic Church that's probably because you haven't said much, and certainly haven't answered the questions that were asked.

I don't know what I've said or done that would justify your manner of response.

I will venture a guess: No one who had the authority to do so ever told you to leave the Church. Someone may have told you that he or she thought you would be happier elsewhere, and didn't understand how you could maintain on the one hand that you were submitting to the true church and on the other hand telling the body to which you were submitting what it ought to do and/or think.

(It's all in Tom Sowell: If I get slammed for being nice and just as slammed for being aggressive, I might as well not try to be nice.)

120 posted on 05/07/2007 1:55:31 PM PDT by Mad Dawg ( St. Michael: By the power of God, fight with us!)
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