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I don't know what MMV means.

As I have said more than once on these threads, the word "pray" is equivocal. IN it's root meaning it just means to request. It is used so in some court documents to this day.

Another sense includes activities which are not petitionary, but might include meditation on a biblical text, thanksgiving, songs of praise, and more. In this sense the word is used about communication between folks in this here empirical vale of tears and God.

Now, it seems that to make a request of anyone is not intrinsically wrong. And to ask someone to pray for one is not wrong, to judge by the requests for prayers one hears Protestants make as much as Catholics.

So the problem seems to be when one "prays" to a person who has shuffled off the mortal coil for that person's prayers, or praises that person for his or her former support through prayer or for other excellences.

The Luke citation is only about a gulf which does not prohibit communication between the rich man and Abraham, but is, within the framework of the parable put there to prevent travel from the rich mans' side to Abraham's or vice versa.

So even if that gulf were shown to be between us and Abraham's side, there would seem to be no argument against communication being able to cross the gulf. But the gulf, as has already been pointed out, is not between US and Lazarus but between the good guy dead folks and the bad guy dead folks, so it's not clearly relevant, t least not that I can see.

I made this argument without help from the magicsterical, by the way.

And finally, we KNOW what you assert. We differ, and we see no argument which addresses what we profess and shows it to be wrong. We see plenty which address slanders about us, and things which we ourselves repudiate. Assertions are not conclusive or dispositive.

What may look like facetious references to the "mortal coil" and the "vale of tears" are in fact efforts to avoid using descriptive terms for "dying" or "this plane of existence" which might turn out to be prejudicial one way or another to the argument.

Many have asserted hereon that to pray TO graduated saints is an insult, affront to Jesus and His shed Blood, perhaps blasphemy, rebellion against Him. That’s our perspective. We find it a Biblical one.

"Graduated"... Is that a Scriptural term?

Yes, you know, we struggle to keep up with your exalted and "graduated" (in the sense of degree-ed) understanding, and we have succeeded to the point of "getting" that you all think there is something very wrong about asking somebody else to pray for one.

We can ask a saint to "obtain" something for us and you somehow think that demonstrates that we weren't asking for prayers.

So let's look at that:
Sissie goes downstairs to ask Mommy for a cookie. Bubba says,'Hey, get one for me too please?" But because he said "get" rather than "ask" (even though the situation clearly indicates that that's what he must have meant) for those who just KNOW that RCs are messed up, that's enough to show that Bubba's was not asking Sissie to make a request. Oh the penetrating insight into others of our helpful brethren!/sarc

Now let's look at the prayer which you adduced as an example of our desire to turn away from God. What is it we are asking the saint to "obtain" for us?"

Obtain for us then a deep hatred of sin and that purity of heart which will attach us to God alone so that out every thought, word and deed may tend to His greater glory. [thanks to the friend who pointed this out to be and emphasis added.]

Yep, if there's one thing we can say with certainty about this prayer, it is that the prayer is composed and prayed by people who want nothing so much as to insult, give affront to, blaspheme and rebel against God. /sarc.

The insult and affront to, blasphemy of, and rebellion against reason and the plain meaning of words we will leave to the graduated among us.

Projective techniques (and the projection they encourage) abound!