Posted on 04/25/2007 6:54:31 AM PDT by NYer
“WOW -- coming from RC tradition I thought I’d never return to the Rosary. But here it is and here SHE IS. Blessed be, Mairly.”
The “here” in this message, found on herchurch.org, is Ebenezer Lutheran Church in San Francisco. But the SHE is not the Mother of God. SHE is “God/dess.”
On Wednesdays at 7 p.m., Ebenezer opens its sanctuary for the “Christian Goddess Rosary.” The church says it offers “Goddess Rosary Beads” and that “prayers and suggested meditations will be on hand as well as incense, candles and bells.”
“The Goddess rosary is grounded in traditions of the Christian Church and the proclamation of the gospel which is a vision of release from bondage for a new creation,” says the church’s web site.
The Goddess Rosary page on herchurch.org says that though “God as Father plays an important role” in Christian tradition, its “exclusive emphasis... contributes to a limited understanding of God, an understanding that supports a domination structure that oppresses and subordinates women.” Jesus used “Abba” as a “revolutionary deconstruction of domination structures of his day in both religious and social institutions.” The modern task is to do the same with “Goddess.”
Ebenezer, however, does not want to eradicate masculine images of God but to balance them with feminine images to “confront the biblical texts, products of their day and cultures, for the blatant patriarchal biases and misogynist attitudes.” And herchurch.org cites three Catholic theologians in support this confrontation: Harvard’s Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, Fordham University’s Sister Elizabeth Johnson, and Rosemary Radford Ruether (who will lecture students in the course, “The History of God in Feminist Theological Discourse,” at LA’s Mount St. Mary’s College this spring.) Ruether calls the exclusive use of male imagery for God “idolatry.”
Herchurch.org offers a “Hail Goddess” prayer by feminist theologian Carol Christ, formerly of Harvard Divinity School but now director of the Ariadne Institute for Myth and Ritual in Greece. The prayer goes: “Hail Goddess full of grace. Blessed are you and blessed are all the fruits of your womb. For you are the MOTHER of us all. Hear us now and in all our needs. O blessed be, O blessed be. Amen.”
“I felt that I had stepped into a Presence, like a mother’s warm embrace,” wrote Dalyn Cook of Ebenezer’s Goddess Rosary. “The attendees were few in number, yet there was a sense of fullness in this welcoming space. I inhaled deeply the earthy scent of the incense, sending up delicate tendrils of smoke which curled around the altar in a nimbus visible against the warm rays of the evening sun filtering through the stained-glass windows....
“From the basket of rosaries, I took into my hand a strand of vibrantly-colored beads with a silver goddess icon in place of the traditional cross. The goddesses came in a variety of shapes and sizes, celebrating the beauty of the feminine form; I found reflections of my own figure in the full hips and Rubenesque curves of my goddess,” Cook wrote.
I don’t give much thought to relationships with those believers who have been promoted to a place face to face with Him. If believers pray to such persons, how exactly do they discern between praying to a familiar spirit and a departed saint?
There’s another thread about heresies in Mexico with the syncritistic combining of pagan beliefs and practices with Roman Catholic ones.
The historical evidence indicates this is what happened that resulted in the RC custom of praying to departed saints.
THAT is the critical issue, to me. The distinction about praying to ancestors for the pagans vs the Christianized version of that seemingly seamlessly added on by the Roman early Christians is not a redemptive distinction for the pagan practice. Prayers to ancesters by the pagans included the presumption that the ancestors were able to hear their prayers. So, the distinction is mostly hollow to begin with.
Perhaps you can show me where I used
“proof”
“prove”
“proven.”
I do occasionally. Rarely, I think.
Great verse for this application.
how exactly do they discern between praying to a familiar spirit and a departed saint?
= = =
You put the finger on one of my more serious concerns about it—though I had not consciously articulated it even to myself.
Do you accept or reject the concept that we are prayed for by the departed saints in heaven just as our family, friends, and clergy here on earth pray for us?
"Every one of us is, even from his mother's womb, a master craftsman of idols." -- John Calvin
By the grace of God, our hearts are reborn and our minds are turned from darkness and fables to the singlular light of Christ risen.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" -- Ephesians 2:4-5"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Two corrections: we are asking them for their prayers, not praying to them and 2) we know their names.
This "familiar spirit" nonsense sounds as if you're quoting from Harry Potter!
To determine well and wisely whether something is good/bad; better/worse; best/worst etc.
I have found it useful to first know the following:
1. WHAT IS THE FITTING RELEVENT GOAL?
2. WHAT IS THE CRITERIA/STANDARD OF MEASURE TELLING ME WHEN THE GOAL IS REACHED?
3. WHAT IS THE CONTEXT?
On this issue, THE CONTEXT is critical. It is clearly commonly Biblical to ask folks still living in this time/space dimension to pray for one another. Paul makes that clear.
NOW WHERE IN SCRIPTURE is it even clearly hinted at that it’s even remotely kosher TO PRAY TO saints who have left this time-space dimension. There is even suggestion, at least, in God’s tone and attitude with the examples about communication across the gulf between the living and the graduated—that God is NOT pleased by such efforts on our part.
And, there is a lot of anecdotal information from folks who’ve been to Heaven and returned, that God has other tasks HE HAS LAID OUT for the saints already there.
The issue of praying to a familiar spirit pretending to be a departed saint is no small matter. It is a very serious spiritual hazard brought about by continuing what was originally a forbidden pagan custom.
Given that AND THE ORIGIN OF THE PRACTICE FROM PAGAN PRACTICES IN PRECHRISTIAN ROME, there’s more than enough justification to not go near such a habit, custom, !!!!TRADITION!!!!
Amen.
There are ample examples of
RC FOLKS using the phrase
PRAYING TO the graduated saints.
It is not an unfair fabrication or misunderstanding of Proties.
Slips of tongue and fingers tend to betray much truth, on occasion.
No. It’s not from Harry Potter though that’s a dangerous enough area.
Scripture makes clear the hazards of interacting even unwittingly with familiar spirits.
Certainly it is an activity God is very hostile towards.
And, I know NOTHING in the whole RC theology of praying to graduated saints which would indicate a routinely fool proof way to preclude famiilar spirits being involved.
LOL
Well done.
Actions speak louder than words. YOU brought up that proverb. It applies to you and "magicsterical" and other mockery as much as to anyone else.
....many of us are convinced are eternally deadly to some sorts of people.
"many of us"? Why don't you all, like, elect a spokesperson or ambassador then and send him or her forward? Who is this "many of us" and why should I care?
And when your spokesbabe or spokesdude appears, get her to try to avoid running around in circles and to appreciate the virtues of consistency. So you think we are running the innocent into hell? That justifies the personal assaults and mockery?When they warn or even pontificate out of caring hearts--it's touching and I'm not THAT bothered even when they get shrill.I note the disparaging use of the word "Shrill". Would you care to give examples of shrillness or are you content to cast slurs upon your opponents in more general ways? I also note that there is a difference between expressing concern and mockery. "Magicsterical" is mockery. Repeated mockery is abuse. Can you point to ONE PERSON who has been converted from our errors to your straight and narrow by your repeated use of "magicsterical"? If not, why are you doing it? Is it that you hope that by insulting people you will get them to listen to you and to take you seriously and to appreciate your warm loving concern?
You characterize some of my posts as jabbing, but seem unable to take responsibility for the provocative and taunting nature of your posts. I wouldn't bring it up so personally, but you disagree with my general characterization, and appealed to some faith in what you all do NOT say. I prefer to believe my eyes.
But, for me, I'm talking about a centuries ancient edifice, organization, system of man,
This assumes what is to be proved. Do you really not understand that? You all say "Edifice" "system of man" but we do not think the Church is such a thing. We believe in God's promises to guide the Church and we draw particular conclusions from that. But you seem unable to hear us say that. (Or you call us haughty, or express your concern for a draft choice to be named later who might be harmed by our opinion.) So you repeat "system of man, edifice," "edifice, system of man," and wonder why communication fails. You're not doing it for yourself, your doing it for the CHILDREN?
Oh, and here it is again: "Magicsterical" is a DUTY! You make up offensive words about what we believe because it's a DUTY! Mocking us, mischaracterizing our arguments, refusing to make intellectual contact with us before you tell us how wrong we are -- so that we are left, or at least I am, thinking that you are arguing against some point I do not believe, and scarcely recognize ... it's a DUTY! There is a moral law that when faced with a disagreement, you must mock the people who make it, avoid stating the area of disagreement in terms that they recognize and acknowledge -- terms that might be useful for growing understanding, repeat yourself a lot, and use big colorful letters?
My best guess is that the angst is not about me nor about my satire. It appears much deeper and longer standing.
I would like to say, "DUH!" I have always resented people who insult and belittle what is dear to me or dear to weaker people foe whom I care and with whom I identify, out of a sense of their own innate and profound wisdom, a wisdom so great that it exempts them from the rules they apply to others. You ventured the personal observation in a public forum -- you get the response.
But the fact is that whatever my motivation, there are real points of discussion here. And if you are with one hand going to refer to research and facts and conclusions and so forth, it seems fishy that when none of your dogs will hunt and the gulfs are in all the wrong places, the conversation switches to motives, deep-seated anger, and shrillness, and stuff . I'd like to see the arguments, not the expression of why the arguments mean so very very much to you and why the seriousness of the matter justifies the abandonment of reason for the abuse of "Magicstgerical", and why your vast psychological experience the details of which remain a mystery gives you the right if not the duty to ignore the successful arguments of your debater to delve into the murky motives behind the obvious neurosis -- what else could it be -- of disagreeing with you?
Oh good grief.
Sorry. I meant to go back and put an explicit statement at the end of the above.
I reject the idea, contention that asking brothers and sisters here in this dimension is
remotely equal
to asking graduated saints to pray for us.
I believe God has placed a great distinction on life here vs life there and that He is greatly displeased with our dinking around across the gulf in such UNBiblical ways.
Do you accept or reject the concept that we are prayed for by the departed saints in heaven just as our family, friends, and clergy here on earth pray for us? Yes or No?
There are ample examples of RC FOLKS using the phrase PRAYING TO the graduated saints.
But have you actually listened to or read these prayers? You'll find that they are asking them to pray for them. The truth of the matter is they are not praying TO the saint.
And, I know NOTHING in the whole RC theology of praying to graduated saints which would indicate a routinely fool proof way to preclude famiilar spirits being involved.
I guess this might be of concern to someone who believes in familiar spirits and such.
If we chose to focus on such, MANY phrases and terms of the RC’s are offensive to us.
More or less ALL the Mariology stuff strikes some of us as a personal attack, insult, blaphemy on our Friend and Lord, Jesus The Christ AS WELL AS ON US who believe differently.
Ditto for a lot of the pet phrases and terms about the distinctives of the RC edifice.
Sometimes, some of the more shrill RC’s even are artists at using such terms and phrases in a seemingly deliberate knife twisting way; provocative way.
MOST of the time, we prefer to just respond with our distinctives and why we don’t support the RC distinctives.
If we got upset at every RC special term as a personal assault, that’s all we’d spend time doing—is being upset. Doesn’t seem very fruitful.
I don’t plan to conform my language to RC expectations and sensibilities per se. They don’t feel any need to conform to mine! LOL.
Magicsterical communicates a lot of truth in a short space. I don’t really have any apology for it. It’s a valid commentary on human religious groups. If folks wish to jump off the cliff screaming over it, I guess that will have to be their responsibility. I have made about all the adjustment on it I expect to make. I try to use it primarily, if not exclusively, where I feel it’s particularly fitting and that there’s no better term to use. I suppose I could go back to using it at the slightest justification.
Do you accept or reject the concept that we are prayed for by the departed saints in heaven just as our family, friends, and clergy here on earth pray for us? Yes or No?
= = =
Yes, I reject that contention. I know of no Biblical justification. I know of not annecdotal evidence that I consider Biblically sound to support it.
Further, the pagan source of the custom disturbs my spirit enormously. And, the spirit and attitude I’ve heard a number of RC’s mention such a practice in has tended to persistently disturb my spirit virtually every time it has happened face to face.
Familiar spirits is a reality that The Bible is VERY CLEAR about. Folks who believe The Bible, believe in familiar spirits. It’s not an option . . . unless one thinks that one can pick and choose which parts of The Bible to believe.
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