Posted on 04/21/2007 9:24:38 AM PDT by DouglasKC
God fearing gentiles who became Christians followed the Lord's food laws as outlined in the scripture they were taught from. Just because some Christians today think it's okay to eat pork doesn't mean that Christians back then found it acceptable to buck (no pun intended) scripture.
“And if any animal which you may eat dies, he who touches its carcass shall be unclean until evening.” (Lev. 11:39)
The fact is that the law of clean and unclean animals was given in this context:
"But I have said to you, ‘You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey.’ I am the Lord your God, who has separated you from the peoples.” (Lev. 20:24).
These laws are all in the context of the promise of the ancient land of Israel to the ancient people of the Jews.
The Church, the new covenant people of God, is no longer restricted to one physical piece of land and one ethnic group. Christians who follow the teachings of the apostles understand that, and so we are not in bondage to these ancient, decayed food laws.
I can't seem to find that in the Bible anywhere. Now I know you are making stuff up on the fly.
I eat pork chops, shrimp, and all sorts of "moving things" because I have the freedom in Christ to do so. Just like Peter and Paul and Noah and Abraham.
No, I'm making logical conclusions. The Lord, in the bible, told them that they shouldn't eat certain animals. Thousands of years of tradition taught the newest Jewish Christians that they should only eat the animals the Lord said were good for food.
But of course they didn't have the benefit of your tradition to tell them to disregard the Lord's words.
I eat pork chops, shrimp, and all sorts of "moving things" because I have the freedom in Christ to do so. Just like Peter and Paul and Noah and Abraham.
Scripturally none of these people never ate anything that God designated as unclean. In the few scriptural examples we have, Abraham only at clean food. And call me when you eat a poisonous tree frog or a puffer fish.
This argument is getting more bizarre all the time.
Folks eat rattlesnakes and other poisonous things all the time. The Japanese eat fugu.
You must have something better than this.
What part of God’s Word (“every moving thing”) are you having a hard time with? Don’t you believe God?
Besides, the cultic food law had nothing to do with health. The evidence here is that the stranger in Israel was not bound by the same food laws as the native born. Cf. Lev. 17:10 where the only restriction for the stranger is the matter of blood we saw in Gen. 9:4.
“You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the alien who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the Lord your God.” (Deut 14:21)
If the food laws were health oriented, to give something inherently unhealthy to your alien neighbor would be a sin.
If I raised food animals and I found one of them dead, I wouldn't touch it without having gloves on. You never know what might have killed it or what diseases it might have had.
You mean the Jewish Christians who were born and raised under the old covenant? You are here to force cultic laws limited to ancient Israel in the land upon all God’s new covenant people.
It is a fit that will not work, first of all because gentiles were never subject to these laws, and second, because we know that Christ has set us free from these things.
Abraham only at clean food.
C&V, s’il vous plait? Abraham was a gentile, the father of many nations. His faith became reality long before Mosaic food laws.
Argument from pragmatics, not from the Bible. I wouldn't dig a latrine upstream from my camp either, but not because it’s written in the Bible (which it isn't). It just makes sense.
I agree it's getting bizarre. You seem to be under the impression that humans can eat anything on the planet and not suffer any consequences. Diseased animals. Fine. Great. Nightshade. Yummy. Belladonna. Chow down! No restrictions I guess.
What part of God’s Word (“every moving thing”) are you having a hard time with? Don’t you believe God?
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Genesis 9:3 refers back to 1:29. Can man eat ANY plant? No and it's stupid to think we can. People die because of it. Or is it more likely that the Lord instructed them on what plants were good for food and what was not? And then wiht that reality it only makes sense that God designated animals as clean and unclean so that Noah would know what was good to eat and what was not. He TAUGHT Noah.
“You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the alien who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the Lord your God.” (Deut 14:21) If the food laws were health oriented, to give something inherently unhealthy to your alien neighbor would be a sin.
I never said they were exclusively health orientated. If you care to read back you'll see that there's various reasons for the food laws.
There's ample scriptural evidence that shows that the food designations created by Christ existed before the old covenant was struck.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
There's also biblical evidence that shows that Peter respected the Lord's food laws 20 to 30 years after the death of Christ.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
There is also scriptural evidence that the Lord's food laws are to be respected in the future:
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
So in contrast to this evidence (and more which I've outlined quite a bit in this thread), I have you putting forth a philosophy, totally unsupported by scripture, based mostly on what tradition has taught you. No thanks. I'll believe scripture.
That is simply inaccurate. There is no bible basis for that statement at all.
In fact, the opposite is demonstrably true in that the Acts passages about Peter, Cornelius, the evangelization of the gentiles, and the Council of Jerusalem ALL indicate the acceptance of gentiles without ANY legal requirements other than those specifically mentioned in Acts 15. No blood, no road kill, no sexual immorality, and no idol worship.
Peter's hypocrisy most specifically says that Peter was living just as gentiles do, and that strongly implies far more logically that he had set aside food laws even for himslf than it would ever suggest that the gentiles were now bound up by old Jewish food laws.
This is simple common sense, and it is impossible for anyone to prove this point wrong. They are free to observe dietary restrictions all they desire, but they cannot claim that such a lifestyle is biblically required for gentile Christians. IT is unscriptural, illogical, and trending toward bondage rather than toward freedom.
If there were such evidence I’m sure you would have produced it. Otherwise your claim is hollow.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Up to that particular point in time that may have been true. BTW, when Peter said he never ate what was “common” what did that mean? What is the biblical basis for that claim?
There is also scriptural evidence that the Lord's food laws are to be respected in the future:
The prophets often speak in symbolic language. E.g.,
“Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," (Isa. 66:20)
If this is still far in our future, how do you explain the language using ancient implements of transport? Do you really expect us to believe that Jews from all over the world, millions of them, will come up to Jerusalem in horse-drawn wagons and with mules and camels? Is El Al going to stop flying?
Nope, I’m afraid you’re missing the reality by missing the symbols.
I have you putting forth a philosophy, totally unsupported by scripture, …
One of us is following the traditions of the rabbis, and one of us if following the commandments and examples of Jesus and His apostles. I’ll stick with Jesus.
Did the Levitical laws exist prior to Noah?
Yes, but only in God’s foreknowledge.
Therefore when man could eat all manner of animals, etc, I believe that then he literally could do so.
After the flood, did anything change?
Yes. But did the 10 Commandments or Levitical law exist?
Yes, but only in God’s foreknowledge.
It wasn’t until Sinai that God actually codified that it was wrong to steal, murder, lie, or cheat. And those laws were only given to the children of Isreal. Was it wrong for other tribes to do the same? Probably but God wasn’t dealing with them through Moses and the law he gave to Moses.
Moses gave and helped interpret the law for Isreal as did the subsequent prophets and judges.
Fast forward to Jesus on Earth and some of those original laws had become bastardized into new man made laws.
Jesus came and fulfilled all of God’s law on behalf of mankind because mankind never could.
Then with his sinless life, crucifixion, death, resurrection, ascention and giving of holy spirit on Pentacost, ushered in a new era where Jew and Gentile could become one. This era is often called the Mystery. (Some accuse me of ‘hyper-dispensationalism’!)
This era also brought in a time where BELIEVERS are not to be ruled by laws but by the spirit of God (Christ in you, the hope of glory) within each believer. (At this point there is an interesting word study of ‘believe’).
BELIEVERS have freedom in Christ and are not ruled by law nor are they obligated to live by law other than the law of love. Unbelieving believers, those saved but without the knowledge or faith to live by the spirit, often still live by ancient or comtemporary laws and traditions. Paul speaks very directly and loudly about this in Galations and Colossians.
We who believe have freedom in Christ. Those who do not believe do not. In one sense both are right! However, the unbeliever have no business judging or condeming the believers.
So if you can’t eat pork due to your conscience and lack of understanding of how God cleansed all, that’s fine. Just don’t try to put that yolk of bondage on anyone else!
I’ll yield my soapbox with the understanding that I may step back up on it at any time! :)
They know that. They have never been able to produce a single verse to support the notion that gentiles were expected to and did, in fact, follow the cultic food laws of Israel.
This gets down to a case of trying to be holier than God. Gentiles eating like Jews, old covenant Jews for that matter. Following the traditions of rabbis rather than the teaching of Christ's apostles.
There is no reason for any Christian to observe food laws unless it is to avoid giving offense (Rom. 14:20,21).
“There is no reason for any Christian to observe food laws unless it is to avoid giving offense.
Hear, hear! You would have enjoyed the pulled pork I made last Saturday. The only offense given was trying to get the people away from the table so others could have their turn at the trough.
Hey, no foolin’? I made pulled pork last Saturday, too. It was great. Twelve hours in a slow oven. Ummm.
The only offense given was trying to get the people away from the table so others could have their turn at the trough.
My boys were over with friends and scarfed down the entire lot.
What a great thing it is for us today to be able to enjoy all the many blessings that God has put on the earth. And we should be thankful for the things Israel had to bear as a church under age that the Messiah might come into the world.
"Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).
"But if anyone says to you, "This was offered to idols," do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience' sake; for "the earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness." 29 "Conscience," I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience? 30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? 31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved." (1 Cor. 10:28-33)
Everything is clean, unless it’s from China.
I am fully convinced that any logic that would have gentiles required to obey food laws would, of logical necessity, when applied to circumcision, also obligate gentiles to be circumcised.
It is the same logic these folks use when dealing with the sabbath.
This is why the Church does not practice Passover anymore, since it would require gentiles to be circumcised. We know that baptism, not circumcision, is the new covenant sign of inclusion for the people of God.
In other words, "If Latin was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"
[/sarcasm]
If you're looking for the real scoop on Leviticus, my advice to you is to consult the Hasidim. They can translate for you from Moses's original Hebrew.
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