Posted on 04/21/2007 6:18:02 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Many people assume that the Ten Commandments and the covenant God established with ancient Israel are identical—and that both were abolished by Jesus Christ's death. They believe that the Sinai Covenant and God's commandments came into existence together and went out of existence together.
But is such reasoning biblical? The facts show it is not. A close look at the Scriptures reveals that breaking the Ten Commandments was a sin before the covenant at Mt. Sinai, so arguments that they came into existence with that covenant and were terminated with it cannot be true. Let's notice the scriptural proof.
God's Word defines sin as "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4, KJV) or "lawlessness" (New King James Version, NIV). Therefore, "where there is no law there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15). This is what the Bible clearly says! So do we find transgressions of the Ten Commandments described as sinful before Mt. Sinai? Clearly we do.
For example, Genesis 13:13 tells us that "the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord." Since sin is violating God's law, the people of Sodom could not have been punished for being wicked and sinful if no law condemned what they were doing. We must conclude, therefore, that God had already made available the knowledge of what is sinful.
Here is a clear example. Genesis 20:3-9 and 39:7-9 describe adultery as "a great sin" and a "sin against God." Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment.
In Genesis 3:6 and 17, God punishes Adam and Eve for their coveting and stealing—breaking the Tenth and Eighth Commandments. They also dishonored Him as their parent, violating the Fifth Commandment.
In Genesis 4:9-12, God punishes Cain for murder and lying—violations of the Sixth and Ninth Commandments.
In Exodus 16:4, several days to several weeks before God established His covenant with the Israelites at Mt. Sinai, we find God giving them a test to see "whether they will walk in My law or not." His test involved whether they would rest on the seventh-day Sabbath as He commanded in the Fourth Commandment of that law—with which they were at least partly familiar. The seventh day had been hallowed—set aside as holy by God—from the time of Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:1-3).
God's reaction to their disobedience is revealing. He exclaims, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?" (Exodus 16: 28). God clearly speaks of both His "commandments and . . . laws" as already existing and in force well before He listed the Ten Commandments verbally at Mt. Sinai, as described four chapters later! Therefore, the Ten Commandments were only codified—written in stone as part of a formal covenant—at Mt. Sinai. Scripture clearly shows that they existed and were in force well before then.
This is stated explicitly in Genesis 26:5, where God tells Isaac that He blessed his father Abraham "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." This event took place centuries before the covenant at Mt. Sinai, centuries before Moses and two generations before Judah, head of the tribe that much later would become known as the Jews, was born! (Be sure to read "Did Abraham Keep the Same Commandments God Gave to Moses?" on page 13).
In Leviticus 18:21 and 27, God calls the idolatrous practices of the people of the land of Canaan "abominations"—actions so filthy and degrading that God compared their expulsion to being "vomited out" of the land (verse 28). What was their sin? Among other things, idolatry (the worship of false gods) and human sacrifice, which violated the First, Second and Sixth Commandments.
The Bible shows that the Ten Commandments did not originate with Moses or in his time. Nor were they in any way limited only to the Jews. They were in effect and known long before Moses or a people known as the Jews existed. They are the foundation of God's laws that show us how to love God (defined by the first four Commandments) and how to love our fellow man (defined by the last six).
This is why, after Jesus Christ returns to establish His glorious Kingdom on earth, Isaiah 2:3 tells us that "many people shall come and say, ‘Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."
At that time, all of mankind will at last be taught to live according to all of God's laws and commandments!
Isn't that another way to say that the penalty of the law, death, for sinning, was nailed to the cross when Christ sacrificed his life?
Pure speculation. Today, we are to obey the laws of Christ, which different from the laws of Moses.
No. The verse he quoted clearly says the ordinances (law) was nailed to the cross, not the penalty.
Really?
The King James says:
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
It says "the handwriting of ordinances" that was against us. The greek word translated "handwriting" is:
cheirographon
a (handwritten) document, legal note, bond: - certificate of debt (1).
Another definition:
a note of hand or writing in which one acknowledges that money has either been deposited with him or lent to him by another, to be returned at the appointed time
It basically means a debt to be repaid.
Now what's interesting is that the word translated "ordinances" is "dogma". Each time it's used in scripture it doesn't have anything to do with God's laws or commandments, but instead has to do with manmade decrees. It's used in Luke 2:1, Acts 16:4, Acts 17:7, Ephesians 2:15 and Galatians 2:14.
So it COULD also mean that what was nailed to the cross was the man made ordinances of the Jewish religion that were causing people to try and find salvation through the religious system and not Christ.
Yes it WAS...And it will be again...
Jesus showed up as the Messiah for the Jews...Had they accepted Him, He would have set up His physical kingdom and reigned over the Jews, and the world with a rod of iron...They thought and still think that was the end of Jesus...
And if that is what Jesus taught, would Paul teach anything different to the Gentiles?
Absolutely...Jesus changed the approach, and the plan...
After the resurrection, Jesus convinces Paul that Paul is required for a little mission...
So Paul spends 3 years with the resurrected Jesus to learn of his plan...His plan had been a mystery...A mystery he called the 'church'...
Jesus tells Paul that he wants to make the Jews who rejected him jealous...Jesus told Paul to go to the Gentiles and offer them a free ride to heaven...
They don't have to visit the people in prison...They don't have to sell their land, homes, belongings, etc...They don't have to be subject to the OT Law where a blood sacrifice is required because he will become the Sacrifice, once for all...
Adopt them into the same family that the Jews rejected...And of course, any Jews who would chose to come along were welcome also...
No works...No law...All done by the grace of God...And Paul's gospel is taught to the Gentiles until the time is completed...Then, the plan changes again...
I now don’t need to stick my nose into the thread. You said it all by reminding us of Matthew 5:17
Thanks
The ancient Jews had many more laws than the 10 Commandments. An "Eye for an Eye", for instance. Jesus replaced that with "Do unto others..." Dietary laws that we no longer follow are other examples. But, you are right -- The 10 Commandments were never set aside, except by the ACLU!
I certainly agree that it's very likely scripturally and practically that the Lord shared much more with Abraham than the ten commandments.
Yes he did.
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
This occurs BEFORE Israel got to Sinai. BEFORE the old covenant was struck. God tells Israel that HIS holy sabbath is the next day. It's been HIS holy sabbath since the beginning of the world.
Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that today; for today is a sabbath unto the LORD: today ye shall not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
There were "commandments and laws" of God BEFORE the old covenant was struck. The sabbath is being addressed specifically here. It is a commandment AND law. It existed BEFORE the covenant.
Before Jesus, the 4th commandment was a vital means of keeping people in the right gears of life. After Jesus fulfilled the law, when we are in the New covenant, so he gets us into the right gears for life.
In that sense, it makes sense to me how we are always in the Sabbath when we are in the New Covenant vehicle, because the New Covenant vehicle is a automatic transmission.
As stated earlier, the appearance of "keeping the commandments" is a response to the indwelling of the spirit of Christ. Christians are, or should be filled with love. A mature Christian doesn't think bad of others, or doesn't entertain malice or bitterness toward others. Physically, this will manifest as a "keeping" of the several commandments. It's the same way with first commandment. A mature Christian will KNOW who the true God is and will devote their lives to following and serving God. They will have no other God's before them. It's the same way with the sabbath. A mature Christian KNOWS that the sabbath IS the sabbath of the Lord. He will recognize and respect it's holiness and see that it's infused with the Lord's presence. The physical appearance will be that he is "keeping the sabbath".
Under the new covenant, Christians have the indwelling of the Lord's spirit which, if we yield to it, will fill us with this Godly love. The outward manifestation of this Godly love is that we will APPEAR to be keeping the commandments of God.
It's what John meant here:
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Actually, this piece is the perfect answer to the last thread; it is precisely what I was groping for the words for: Mosaic law was abolished, but God’s law is eternal. Hence, the 700-or-so restrictions on Jews were not applied to Gentiles, including dietary restrictions, circumcision, festivals, etc.; but the ten commandments are eternal.
>> To be fair, it’s usually brought up in the context of the sabbath commandment. If one believes that the ten commandments are not abolished, then one has to believe that the sabbath commandment is still in force for Christians today. <<
It is. But the codification of that commandment, which states that the Sabbath is the seventh day, is not. All the other commandments are inherently recognizable by the human soul, as is the need for rest. Hence, there is no harshness in God’s punishment against those in Genesis who violated it: they should have known better. But how can one intuitively discern which day of the week is the seventh?
You are a legalist, Doug. The principle, which must always be kept, is that people must reserve time for God altogether. The regulation is that the day was chosen to be Saturday, since that day was the day which God had shown his greatest love to mankind. Since the resurrection, the Church has said, “God first, work later,” and celebrated the resurrection first.
But I did recognize that this was all to promote your little wierdo cult... Say, did the anniversary of Waco get you all in the mood to debate or something?
And where did you find this information in scripture? I see that the sabbath was the 7th day from the beginning:
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Nowhere in scripture do I read about man having the authority to change a day created holy by the Lord to any other day. Even if you associate with a church that has "esteemed" one day over the true sabbath, then that doesn't change the fact that the Lord's sabbath is still holy.
All the other commandments are inherently recognizable by the human soul, as is the need for rest.
I have no idea what this means. The world is full of sin. The world is full of sinners. In fact, the world is populated exclusively by sinners. The human "soul" does not and cannot recognize the things of God:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Hence, there is no harshness in God’s punishment against those in Genesis who violated it: they should have known better. But how can one intuitively discern which day of the week is the seventh?
Your premise is faulty. There is "harshness" toward everyone who violates God's commandments. Small or great. The harshness is death.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
It is ONLY by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that we escape the harshness of death. And that alone should make you WANT to obey his commandments out of gratitude and a sense of thanksgiving.
You are a legalist, Doug. The principle, which must always be kept, is that people must reserve time for God altogether. The regulation is that the day was chosen to be Saturday, since that day was the day which God had shown his greatest love to mankind. Since the resurrection, the Church has said, “God first, work later,” and celebrated the resurrection first.
I am a legalist because I believe the bible instead of your tradition? Good. I will gladly accept that title and consider it an honor and a blessing.
But I did recognize that this was all to promote your little wierdo cult... Say, did the anniversary of Waco get you all in the mood to debate or something?
Wow. Talk about harshness. I understand that my beliefs challenge your own. That they make you uncomfortable. Because if scripture is actually right, then what you've been taught and learned by your tradition is wrong. If I were in your position, I might make the same type of comment. Or at least think about it. But if I did I hopefully I would recognize it as a fault I would need to overcome.
Here’s why I bring up Waco: the 7th-Day Adventist movement has a bad history with cults and for a very good reason: It plays directly into the beliefs that everyone else has been subtly deceived, despite intending to the right thing, and, therefore, they’re all facing horrific torture by an enraged God. Mankind knew murder, adultery, idolatry, false testimony, fornication, jealousy, etc., was wrong and chose to do them anyway, because of his sinful nature. How was mankind to know Saturday was the Sabbath?
See, the other regulations of Mosaic law were legalisms to meet a purpose: to set apart a chosen race. That part of the law, once fulfilled, is moot. What remains are but two commandments. You’re trying to bring back the law through which death was judged apon Man.
When Peter did away with circumcision, what scripture guided him? What scripture told him, essentially, to do away with this one aspect of the law?
The fact that all the commandments are revoked means they are not without purpose, however; this claim is not, as you made it seem at the start, an assertion of licensiousness. Now that we know WHY the commandments exist, we can CHOOSE, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to decide for ourselves how to meet their purposes, which are the two great commandments.
But instead of promoting love of their fellow men, the 7th-Day adventist movement gets people to view all outsiders suspiciously, as mere tempters towards destruction. Given that view, it’s no wonder why the movement has had problems with cultist splinter groups.
The Branch Davidian sect is no historical anomaly; it is still alive and thriving.
From its origin, the 7th-Day Adventist was a doomsday cult, with the Great Disappointment of Oct. 22, 1844. Next came Ellen Gould White, who taught that the Pope was the antichrist, because if you add up the Latin-alphabet letters of “Vicarivs Filii Dei,” you get 666. The problem was that in no authentic Catholic-Church document was the Pope ever refered to as that. And of course, Church Latin uses “u,” not “v.” (It’s Christ’s role as the Son of Man which the Pope serves as vicar of.) Oddly, by her own logic, Ms. White (”eLLen goULD VVhIte”) is the antichrist. This is especially interesting, given that her followers consider her a modern-day prophet.
It may seem strange to Christians that Branch Davidians could be all that related to 7th Day Adventists, because, after all, wasn’t Koresh teaching entirely un-Christian things? But little do most Christians know that many other 7th-Day Adventist groups deny Jesus’ divinity, and believe him, instead, to be an angel with a fallen soul... like David Koresh.
The spread of 7th-Day Adventism is a cancer in Christianity. The movement can claim a remarkable one million converts per year, but also loses 10 percent of its membership every five years. Further, its brutal attacks on mainstream Christianity leave most of these people completely without any Christian faith, and arguably sows significant distress and discord among far more people for whom the Adventists’ attacks haven’t inspired conversion, but have destroyed their incumbent faith.
Since you apparently didn't read or understand my last post, I'll say it again. Your premise is faulty. Mankind doesn't "know" any of these things are wrong. Mankind doesn't have a clue that he should obey God on these matters. It is ONLY by the Lord calling us to repentance and the indwelling of his holy spirit that we can understand these things.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Mankind doesn't know it's wrong to steal anymore than they know it's wrong to violate the Lord's sabbath.
See, the other regulations of Mosaic law were legalisms to meet a purpose: to set apart a chosen race. That part of the law, once fulfilled, is moot. What remains are but two commandments. You’re trying to bring back the law through which death was judged apon Man.
Let's look at those two commandments:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Look at verse 40. Does it say "These two commandments "REPLACE and OBSELETE" all other commandments? Of course not. It says ALL the law and prophets HANG on these two commandments:
Love of God Love of Others
| |
| |
1st commandment |------6th commandment
2nd commandment | 7th commandment
3rd commandment | 8th commandment
4th commandment | 9th commandment
5th commandment---- 10th commandment
Each of these commandments of the Lord branching from them. Christ meant that the culmination of the law and prophets was PERFECT LOVE. If a man has perfect, Godly love, then he will ALWAYS be keeping the commandments of the Lord, spiritually, mentally and physically.When Peter did away with circumcision, what scripture guided him? What scripture told him, essentially, to do away with this one aspect of the law?
I'm sure God inspired him with these passages:
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
The fact that all the commandments are revoked means they are not without purpose, however; this claim is not, as you made it seem at the start, an assertion of licensiousness. Now that we know WHY the commandments exist, we can CHOOSE, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to decide for ourselves how to meet their purposes, which are the two great commandments.
In other words, we can define for ourselves what "Love of God" and "love of neighbor" means. That's exactly why our society has abortion, homosexuality, adultery, child sex, pornography and a host of other evils. It's exactly because the philosophy you are espousing has turned standards of behavior associated with Godly love into a burdensome law.
But instead of promoting love of their fellow men, the 7th-Day adventist movement gets people to view all outsiders suspiciously, as mere tempters towards destruction. Given that view, it’s no wonder why the movement has had problems with cultist splinter groups. the Branch Davidian sect is no historical anomaly; it is still alive and thriving.
I have a surprise for you. There's not one perfect Christian denomination, cult or sect. Just as there's not one perfect person on earth, there's not one perfect organization. All have had, and will have, problems, schisms, difficulties and evils simply because they're made up of imperfect people. It will ALWAYS be that way until Christ returns. He has to return to stop us from killing ourselves. The one true church isn't an organization. You can't find a zip code for it. You can't point to it and say "there it is". It's made up of called out individuals, individuals called to be servants of the living God.
The sabbath has been discussed quite a bit in other threads.
Keepin g the Sabbath Keeping Your Job
The Berean Daily Verse, The Sabbath
You may also want to search on the posting history for the following:
diego1618
kerryusama04
xeniast
All of these users post extensively about the 7th day sabbath.
Just had to have post 100...
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