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To: magisterium; Salvation
You either have a second or third edition:

"But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." Faith of Millions, pp. 400 and 401, by the Reverend John A. O'Brien, PH.D., Copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington Indiana

this debate has really sunk into the juvenile.

185 posted on 04/19/2007 6:46:08 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (John 19:31)
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To: kerryusama04
Funny. I keep asking for Catholic sources for your quotes and the only place I can reference for the quotes (according to Google) is "SabbathTruth.com". They are referenced exactly as you have posted them (repeatedly) so I doubt you are doing anything more than cutting and pasting from this site.

Once again, as was shown with your first attempt on this thread, your source is suspect. Point me to a Catholic source for your quotes of Catholic theologians or bug off.

202 posted on 04/20/2007 7:47:02 AM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
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To: kerryusama04

Indeed, it has. But, since you post this excerpt - presumably - for our edification, let’s use it. Notice that Fr. O’Brien makes the claim that there is nothing citable in the New Testament specifically “authorizing” the change. This is true, as far as it goes. But, as other posters have already noted, there is New Testament evidence that Sunday worship had already begun to occur (Acts 20:7, Colossians 2:16). Fr. O’Brien goes on to state that, while there may be no proof text regarding Sunday worship, it nevertheless had become customary even during the Apostolic Age to have the weekly observances transferred to Sunday. You cite his quote about lack of biblical directives in this matter as a self-damning piece of evidence, while you evidently have failed to note that he clearly notes a first century origin for the practice. He bases his source for the authority to change to Sunday worship on the authority of the Church itself. The early Church thought it more fitting to commemorate the completion of the passion and resurrection of Jesus than the completion of the original acts of creation, and, by its own authority, vested in the Apostles, it did just that.

And why not? The entire New Testament is riddled with examples of the abrogation of Jewish dietary laws, circumcision and the like. The command in Exodus 20 to worship God is certainly universal in its scope, but the command to worship on the Sabbath day is restricted to the Israelites, as it is a commemoration for them only. The specific day, as opposed to the principal of worshiping God, is akin to the dietary laws and other things that the Church dispensed with on its own authority coupled with direction for God.

The problem here is that the Catholic Church recognizes the authority of the Apostles and their successors to actually govern the Church, while you obviously do not. Nearly all of the major debates here on FR come down to the question of “authority.” Clearly, though, if Sunday worship was pretty near universal by the second century, and there is nothing in Scripture directly commanding it, then such a change must have come from the authority of the Church at this very early date. It is incumbent on you, at this point, to demonstrate in the 21st Century how you know better than our Christian ancestors in the 1st and 2nd Centuries in this and so many other matters. You would do well to demonstrate further how the Providence of God is not fatally violated by ruptures in “essentials” from such a very early date that were only rectified 15 centuries or more from the Church’s founding. So much for Matthew 28:16-20.

The same authority of the Church demonstrated in Matthew 28, John 20 and 21, Acts 15, and 1Cor 11, among others, evidently felt itself competent to address the issue of which day would be utlized to fulfill the Christian obligation to worship God in common. It is the same authority, by the way, that was in play when the 4th century Church codified the canon of Scripture. That you recognize the Book they canonized without recognizing their role as authentic interpreters of revelation overall is the heart of your problem. That you do not recognize anything enacted by the early Church that does not find itself specifically laid out in “shalt and shalt not” form in the New Testament leaves you with a very tenuous understanding of Scripture as a whole. It robs you of so much benefit from the Scriptures you cherish, as 2Peter 3:16 makes plain.

Bottom line: it does not matter that you cannot find a direct command in Scripture ordering the Apostles to change the common worship day. History says they did. The fact that they did this on their own authority (guided, presumably, by the Holy Spirit), in similar fashion to what they did in Acts 15 about other matters, speaks volumes.


203 posted on 04/20/2007 8:12:44 AM PDT by magisterium
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