DISPENSATIONALISM: Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth

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DISPENSATIONALISM

Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth

Dispensationalism is a doctrinal system that keeps Israel and the Church distinct. This system teaches that throughout history God is seen to have two distinct purposes and two distinct people and these distinctions are maintained throughout eternity (or at least throughout the end of the millennium).

The question is whether the Bible teaches of such a division. To the contrary, the Bible teaches that God has taken all of His people and made them ONE. "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity." (Ephesians 2:14-16).

 

DISPENSATIONAL DISTINCTIVES

DISTINCTION #1: Plan & Purpose of God.

Dispensationalism teaches that God has two separate plans and two separate and distinct peoples through whom He works - Israel and the Church.

The Bible teaches that God has ONE unified people. In the Old Testament that was Israel, but even then not all Israel was Israel, but only those who entered into covenant relationship of faith in God. Those who are not of faith are not His people. And those who are of faith are His people. This is true in every age. This is why Paul can say that "those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham" (Galatians 3:7).

DISTINCTION #2: The Law.

Dispensationalism says that the Mosaic Law is done away in Christ.

It is true that the Bible sees the Ceremonial Law as being fulfilled in Christ, but the Moral Law as contained in the Ten Commandments are repeated throughout the New Testament, showing that those commands are still in force (though admittedly the nature of the Sabbath is described differently since we have now entered into the rest provided by Christ). Indeed, Jesus Himself said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). Does His fulfillment of the Law mean that it has passed away? To the contrary, He explains His meaning with a careful and sober warning: "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19).

DISTINCTION #3: The Nature of the Church.

Dispensationalism sees the church as a parenthesis, a temporary situation lying between God's two dealings with Israel.

The Bible sees the church as the culmination of all God's people, the very body of Christ and the fullness of God. Paul speaks of the message given to him "to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:9-10). Far from being a parenthesis, the church is the culmination of something begun in Old Testament times. Paul goes on to point out that "this was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Ephesians 3:11).

DISTINCTION #4: Church in the Old Testament.

Dispensationalism usually teaches that the church is neither found nor mentioned in the Old Testament.

The Bible states that the Old Testament DID look forward to a time when Gentiles would enter into the Covenant. The promised Messiah was to be both a "covenant to the people, and a light to the nations" (Psalm 42:6). God also said, "I will call those who were not My people, 'My people'" (Romans 9:24-25).

Paul is specific to tell us that the coming of Gentiles into the church was a confirmation of "the promises given to the fathers, and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, 'Therefore I will give praise to Thee among the Gentiles, And I will sing to Thy name'" (Romans 15:8-9).

Peter says that "the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you" (1 Peter 1:10-12). The Old Testament prophets not only prophesied of those glories that would follow the cross, but also acknowledged that their prophecies were to benefit the future church.

DISTINCTION #5: Old Testament Promises.

Dispensationalism says that all of the promises given in the Old Testament must be fulfilled to a political nation of Israel.

Over and over again, the Bible sees these promises being fulfilled to the Church as the "Spiritual Israel" and people of God. The Bible teaches us that "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel" (Romans 9:6). Conversely, we have already seen how the presence of Gentiles in the church was a fulfillment of the Old Testament promise that God would "call those who were not My people, 'My people'" (Romans 9:24-25).

The writer to the Hebrews says that those Old Testament saints "did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect" (Hebrews 11:39-40). This is completely antithetical to the Dispensational teaching that says, "Israel gets the promises to Israel and the church gets the promises to the church and never the twain shall meet."

It is significant that when James wanted to demonstrate the legitimacy of the New Testament program of bringing Gentiles into the church, he turned to the Old Testament, saying, "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, ‘After these things I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, And I will restore it, in order that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name'" (Acts 15:14-17). The passage to which James turned was that of Amos 9:11-12.

Old Testament Prophecy	New Testament Fulfillment
"I will rebuild the Tabernacle of David"	The growth of the church
"...in order that the rest of mankind may see the Lord"	Gentiles to become Christians in the growing church.

James had no problems looking to the events that were going on in the church of his day and seeing them as fulfillments of Old Testament prophecies.

 

DISTINCTION #6: Two Comings of Christ Versus One.

Dispensationalism teaches that Christ will return to the earth is a secret "Rapture" in which all believers will be removed from the earth. This is later followed by the "Second Coming of Christ" which is a distinct and separate event.

The Bible teaches that there is ONE future coming of Christ in which "every eye shall see Him" and "every knee shall bow." Instead of a second and third future coming, the Bible teaches that Christ, "having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him" (Hebrews 9:28). For further discussion on the Dispensational "Rapture" Theory, see The Rapture Question and A Critique of the Evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture.

DISPENSATIONALISM VERSUS COVENANT THEOLOGY

Dispensationalism can best be understood in light of a contrast with what has come to be known as "Covenant Theology."

Dispensationalism	Covenant Theology
Stresses "literal" interpretation of the Bible	Accepts both literal and figurative (spiritual) interpretation of the Bible
"Israel" always means only the literal, physical descendants of Jacob	"Israel" may mean either physical descendants of Jacob, or spiritual Israel, depending on context
"Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 means physical Israel alone	"Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 means spiritual Israel, parallel to Gal. 3:29; Rom. 2:28-29; 9:6; Phil. 3:3.
God has 2 peoples with 2 separate destinies: Israel (earthly) and the Church (heavenly).	God has one covenant people. Those in this age have become a part of God's continuing covenant people.
All Old Testament prophecies for "Israel" are only for the physical nation of Israel, not for the Church	Some Old Testament prophecies are for national Israel, others for spiritual Israel
The Church is a parenthesis in God's program for the ages	The Church is the culmination of God's saving purpose for the ages
The main heir to Abraham's covenant was Isaac and literal Israel	The main heir to Abraham's covenant was Christ, the Seed, and spiritual Israel which is "in Christ"
Jesus made an offer of the literal Kingdom to Israel; since Israel rejected it, it is postponed	Jesus made only an offer of the Spiritual Kingdom, which was rejected by literal Israel but has gradually been accepted by spiritual Israel
Teaches that the Millennium is the Kingdom of God. They are always Premillennial, usually Pre-tribulation	The Church is the Kingdom of God. This can be interpreted both within the Premillennial, Post Millennial or Amillennial framework.
The Old Testament animal sacrifices will be restored in the Millennium, as a memorial only	The Old Testament sacrifices were fulfilled and forever abolished in Christ

 

THE TERM "DISPENSATION"

The word "dispensation" is translated from the Greek word OIKONOMIA. This term is used three times in Luke 16:2-4. All three times it refers to the responsibilities of a servant (or a steward). It is used in 1 Corinthians 9:17 to describe the responsibilities which the Lord had laid specifically upon Paul.

Ephesians 1:10 speaks of the purpose which God had in centering and "administering" all things in Christ. Ephesians 3:2 speaks of Paul's special ministry to the Gentiles. If this is to be considered a separate Dispensation in the Theological sense, then we must also conclude that the other apostles were still stuck in the previous Dispensation to the Jews. Colossians 1:25 does the same thing, speaking of the stewardship which the Lord had placed upon Paul - the stewardship of the preaching of the Word of God. 1 Timothy 1:4 urges Timothy to pay attention to the EDIFYING (i.e., the administration) of the things of the Lord.

Not once do we ever see the term "dispensation" used in the Bible in the manner that is used by Dispensationalists.

 

THE "DOUBLE VISION" OF DISPENSATIONALISM

Have you ever tried to deliberately cross your eyes? The result is that your vision becomes blurred and you begin to see things with a "double vision." If you are looking at a coffee mug, you will instead see two of them. Dispensationalism suffers from this kind of spiritual myopia.

• It sees two future comings of Christ (or in some cases, three).

• It sees multiple judgments in which people shall come before Christ and to be judged.

• It sees multiple days in the Day of the Lord.

I believe that to view the Scriptures through the lens of Dispensationalism creates a distorted view of the Bible, the church and the Lord's revealed program for the ages.

[Ping-Pong]

I wasn't speaking of the present....which is what I believe you thought I was referring to. Right?

Yes I did think that and breathed a big sigh of relief this morning when you cleared that thought out of my head.

I agree, 1Cori.15:51-52, 1Thess 4:16-18 are the "first resurrection". They are about the 2nd. Advent, the 7th trumpet, the beginning of the millennium and are speaking of the same time as Rev. 20:4-5

I'm going to get complete off message here and tell you what I think about the "fallen angels".

[Jude 6] speaks of the same rebellious Angels in Tartarus. [2 Peter 2:4] also speaks of these fallen Angels....there were a bunch, a third of heaven!

I think those fallen angels are not the same as the 1/3 that followed Satan in the first age. I think that Rev.12:4 is speaking of the first age when Satan rebelled and he took 1/3 of God's children with him. The fallen angels are in this age. They left their habitation, heaven, because of the daughters of Adam so it has to be in this age.

Rev. 9:3 tells us about the locust army (satan's fallen angels)with (7)"faces of men". Their leader is (11)the angel of the bottomless pit - Satan. They are supernatural and gather others to fight with them. (16) and the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. (18)By what issued from their mouth (lies) 1/3 of men were killed (spiritually) - they fell for Satan's deception. (19) For their power is in their mouth...

Rev.12:9.And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev. 11:13, I believe, is telling us that those fallen angels were slain at the 7th trumpet and there were 7,000 of them.

So, I see a difference in the fallen angels and those from Rev. 12:4 - "his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven..." Both, the angels and these "stars of heaven" have to be spirit as neither were flesh but I think the 1/3 were in the 1st age and the fallen angels in this age.

There are a couple of things we should understand here. When Our Lord was crucified....He died!

I was going to put here the verse about the silver cord parting and we go immediately to Father but that can't apply here. Jesus told Mary that He had not yet ascended. Did His Spirit stay in His body during that time or did it go to "prison" to preach?

I don't know for certain yet but I'm more open to your belief on this. I'm still not sure.

This brings us back to the original topic. Where are the souls, when did they first appear, where are they when the body dies, etc. If they are not "eternal" or "immortal" (at least kind of, sort of, eternal) what happens to them?

I understand what you meant about being immortal when you were young - It's a wonder some of us are still living.

Your friend.......Ping

[Ping-Pong]

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

A lot happened before that - Gen.1:27.So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

This was the 6th day creation, mankind, all the races and they were told to REplenish the earth.

2:2.And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.

2:5....there was not a man to till the ground.

2:7.And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.This is Adam, "the man Adam", not mankind

2:20.....but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21.And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22.And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made He a woman, and brought her unto the man.

There is a lot of difference in the 6th day creation and Adam and Eve. They weren't created/formed at the same time.

Are you saying that prior to there being light, the earth existed void of form with just water on it for an unspecified amount of time? Is this the gap?

Before it "existed void of form" it was beautiful and inhabited. It became void of form when Satan rebelled in the first age.

Heaps of blessings back to you Chris....Ping

[Ping-Pong]

This is one place where I disagree with Ping. It specifically says, “there was no man.”

I think that verse means God destroyed everything as oppossed to Noah's flood where there were still the men on the ark. Also the verse says "all the birds of the heavens were fled", where in Noah's flood there were birds.

This is the first trinity in scripture and it is a special example because this is what God has chosen to begin his book.

Your friend......Ping

[kerryusama04]

Allow me to introduce you guys to:

Conspiracy Theory Brother (David Chapelle's character in the movie Undercover Brother - yes, I own this movie)

>begin rant<

I have learned a bit of a lesson in my little venture into all things theological. This lesson is a hard one, but is summed up by the following scripture:

Tit 3:8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

You see, most of the doctrines that folks like us hold to are thoroughly grounded in plain scripture, yet escape most of mankind completely. Most of Christianity (outside of the Apostolic Succession crowd) claim that they take their entire faith completely from the Bible, but when you dig a little bit, you find that they hold to completely unscriptural beliefs. The doctrine of the Trinity and the swap from Sabbath to Sunday being chief among these, the state of the dead coming in a close third, IMHO. So, here comes the rub. If we hold a doctrine that is even slightly in contradiction with plain scripture, that seriously degrades our credibility.

Furthermore along the lines of the conspiracy theory line, it is really tough in our day and time to take anything at face value. This is very prevalent in US politics, as we go to great lengths to elect men who have presented themselves in a very righteous light, only to be revealed at some later date as being duplicitous at best. The unfortunate truth in our world is that things seldome are what they seem. However, in my theological philosophy, I do not see God doing this to us. I like to think that everything we need, and then some, is afforded us between Genesis and Revelation in plain speak. We must keep in mind that the folks who wrote the scriptures, and billions of people who followed them, could barely read, let alone cross reference verses against historical facts and such. In a nuthell, when Nehemiah read the scriptures to those who returned from Babylon in the open square of the ruined city, the words just meant what they said. That was enough for them, and it is enough for me.

I have to ask a question that I am sure one of you guys will have an answer to. How old is the gap theory? I ask because it screams to be an idea thought up post-Darwinism because it provides an avenue for us to blend men's doctrines with those of the Lord God Almighty. This, of course, is the scriptural definition of harlotry, and the Apostolics unabashedly practice this. Heck, I think there was a recent post about how the pope was figuring out how to incorporate evolution with Christianity. My feelings aainst this are incredibly strong and I would rather die ignorant and wrong than to risk mixing pagan ideas with worship of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Seven, I am sorry, but the first trinity was not in scripture at all, but it was worship of Nimrod, his mother Semiramis, and his father Tammuz. The trinity is pagan and is one of these harlotries.

Diego, on the passage you cite in Ezekiel. It only says that Satan was in Eden. Why do you assume it has to be prior to when Adam and Even were in Eden? Why couldn't Satan have been in the garden at the same time as them? I don't think that we know when the angels were created, nor do we know clearly when unrighteousness was found in Satan. Verse 16 says Satan was cast from the mount of God. That's Zion, not Eden! Verse 18 shows Satan being consumed by fire, this, of course being a future event. In the matter of a few entences, Ezekiel covers a minimum of 7000 years. I am going to need a lot more data than this to form a doctrine. Sorry.

I think it is also important to recall that God Ezekiel is taking dictation here:

Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

Ezekiel, like Daniel and probably all of the prophets, didn't understand what he was saying. The Pharisees, like Paul specifically, were absolutely more qualified than we are to interpret prophesy, yet they completely missed the boat on Jesus. How do we have even the slightest shot at figuring out the mysteries of Elohim?

Now, don't get me wrong, I like to speculate about prophesy and try to figure it out just as much as the next guy. I just find that when one becomes too sure of the details of their prophesy interpretations, it can lead to adjustments in other doctrines, and dilute a generally good and acceptable message.

Blessing to all,
Chris

>/rant<

[kerryusama04]

p.s. I read Genesis 2 as more detail on Genesis 1. Sorta like topic sentence then supporting paragraphs, etc.

[Ping-Pong]

I read Genesis 2 as more detail on Genesis 1. Sorta like topic sentence then supporting paragraphs, etc.

I used to read it like that too. I thought the wording was very strange but just assumed it was a repeat, or as you say, "more detail". When you really look at it though there are differences that tell us it isn't the same event.

It also answers questions on where Cain's wife came from, the different races, who lived in the "city" that Cain built, etc.

Just think about it for awhile

Your friend.......Ping

[Diego1618]

Diego, on the passage you cite in Ezekiel. It only says that Satan was in Eden. Why do you assume it has to be prior to when Adam and Even were in Eden?

The Ante-chaotic Age extended from the original creation of the heavens and the Earth and all things included to the rebellion and overthrow of the first creation. It was the dateless period between [Genesis 1:1] when the Earth was finished and inhabited in the beginning and [Genesis 1:2] when the Earth was first flooded, destroying all life. It takes in that unknown time during which Earth was in its first perfect state and ruled by Lucifer before he rebelled and caused the Earth to be flooded, as in [Genesis 1:2].

In [Ezekiel 28:11-17] it is stated of Lucifer: "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." This teaches that there was a period of perfection and sinlessness on the Earth before its curse and chaotic state as in [Genesis 1:2]; so we call this period, "The Ante-chaotic Age."

If Lucifer and many other spirit beings had remained true to God, there would have been no universal curse on the Earth and no need for a re-creation of the atmospheric heavens and the Earth and life on the planet Earth, as recorded in [Genesis 1:3-2:25].

It was not until Adam and Eve actually sinned that God knew the full results of their test [Genesis 3]. It was not until man had proved such a failure before the flood that God regretted having made him [Genesis 6:5-7]. It was not until God came down to see the rebellion of the post-diluvians, Sodom and Gomorrah and others, that God took action [Genesis 11:1-9; Genesis 18:21]. So it is with every free moral agent of any period. Each has to be tried and purged of any possibility of falling before God places him in an eternal state and gives him eternal responsibility.

EARTH'S FIRST SINFUL RECORD [Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 14:1-14; Jeremiah 4:23-26; Ezekiel 28:11-17; 2 Peter 3:5-6]

[kerryusama04]

In [Ezekiel 28:11-17] it is stated of Lucifer: "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." This teaches that there was a period of perfection and sinlessness on the Earth before its curse and chaotic state as in [Genesis 1:2]; so we call this period, "The Ante-chaotic Age." in Satan.

[Diego1618]

" This teaches that there was a period of perfection and sinlessness in Satan.

According to your understanding....when would this have been?

[kerryusama04]

If Lucifer and many other spirit beings had remained true to God, there would have been no universal curse on the Earth and no need for a re-creation of the atmospheric heavens and the Earth and life on the planet Earth, as recorded in [Genesis 1:3-2:25].

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

God kew what was going to happen. God knows everything.

[kerryusama04]

According to your understanding....when would this have been?

I don't know. Scripture doesn't say :)

[kerryusama04]

How much time passed between the first Sabbath and Eve’s sin?

[Diego1618]

I don't know. Scripture doesn't say

In [Isaiah 14:12-14] we have conclusive proof that Lucifer ruled the Earth before the days of Adam. It could not have been since Adam that he ruled and fell from Heaven as in this passage, for he was already a fallen creature before Adam was created. In Adam's day he regained dominion of the Earth and has been the prince of this world ever since. In this passage both Satan and the king of Babylon are in view. This is what is known as the law of double reference, that is, a visible person is immediately addressed while at the same time an invisible person who is using the visible person as a tool to hinder the plan of God is also addressed. For example, when Jesus said to Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou art an offense to me: for thou sayest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" [Matthew 16:23], He did not mean that Peter was the personal devil, but that he was being used as a tool of Satan to keep Christ from getting to the cross. Hence, both Peter and Satan are addressed and involved in the statement. To understand such passages, one should understand that part of the passage that can refer to an earthly person as referring to a man, and that part that cannot possibly refer to an earthly person as referring to the invisible person also addressed.

How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations. And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north. I go up above the heights of a thick cloud, I am like to the Most High.

[kerryusama04]

Diego, you are assuming this happened prior to Adam and Eve's creation. You are also assuming that the angels couldn't have been created prior to the earth being created (because I don't think scripture says when the angels were created, does it?) and then sinned after the earth was created. You are also assuming that a whole lot of time had to pass while Satan was perfect. There is a direct parallel between Satan and man in the story of King Saul. How long was King Saul exalted prior to him sinning? Yep, that's right, about 5 minutes. Satan could have very well been created after Adam and Eve and exalted prior to them eating from the tree of knowledge. The time frame is missing from all the scriptures you have referenced so far.

Jeremiah 4 almost has me, but you have to keep reading. There's no man in 25, but there's a horseman in verse 29 as well as desolate cities and a woman giving birth in 31. ADAM WAS THE FIRST MAN. Who built the cities? Why does Jeremiah say there are no men if men hadn,t been created? Add in the woman giving birth and this is obviously referencing Revelation, not Genesis.

YLT
2Pe 3:5 for this is unobserved by them willingly, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of water and through water standing together by the word of God, (Genesis 1)
2Pe 3:6 through which the then world, by water having been deluged, was destroyed; (Noah)
2Pe 3:7 and the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured, for fire being kept to a day of judgment and destruction of the impious men.(Revelation)

Now, for the last time, when was this doctrine invented and by whom?

[Seven_0]

Satan could have very well been created after Adam and Eve and exalted prior to them eating from the tree of knowledge. The time frame is missing from all the scriptures you have referenced so far.

You could be right. If you are, then other things will fit as well. If Satan was created after Adam and then sinned before him, why is Adam blamed for bringing sin into the world?

[kerryusama04]

You could be right. If you are, then other things will fit as well. If Satan was created after Adam and then sinned before him, why is Adam blamed for bringing sin into the world?

I think it was eve who gets the blame here:

2Co 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

To answer your question, I think it is because we are a different race from the angels with a different set of standards and are stuck on earth. If somehow you got the impression that I have all the answers, you're going to be more disappointed than Smiling Bob's wife when the Viagra ran out!

[Seven_0]

I think it was eve who gets the blame here:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Eve was deceived, Adam chose to eat the fruit knowing he would die. The point I was trying to make is that if Satan had sinned before God said "let there be light, then sin would not have entered the new creation through Satan.

If somehow you got the impression that I have all the answers

I know better than that. I have plenty of questions that need answers, which is why I enter these conversations. I can tell that you know your Bible and I thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Seven

[kerryusama04]

What graciousness, you say I have a good knowledge of the Word while correcting me! God Bless you.

I think you just put the nail in the coffin on this thing.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin entered the world through Adam. God would have had absolutely no reason to destroy the world prior to that occurrence.

[Diego1618]

Diego, you are assuming this happened prior to Adam and Eve's creation

In [Isaiah 14:12-14] we have some statements which cannot possibly be made of an earthly king of Babylon. The passage is universally accepted as referring to the fall of Satan. :

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ascend into heaven, I WILL exalt my throne above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL be like the most High."

Things we learn from this passage:

1. That his name is Lucifer. 2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man. 3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven [Luke 10:18]. 4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall. 5. That he had weakened nations on Earth. 6. That he was exalted in his heart. 7. That he invaded Heaven, where God rules. 8. That he was a king, for he had a throne and subjects over whom he ruled. 9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God. 10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation [Psalms 72:1; 82:1;][ Isaiah 6:1]. 11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated. 12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth, for one can stand on certain parts of the Earth and still be above clouds. 13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created. 14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. He had no kingdom on Earth at the time of Adam and has not had since in the sense of a visible, personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam. 15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them. 16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe [Psalms 75:6-7]

Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam. In [Colossians 1:15-18] we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were all destroyed when the flood of [Genesis 1:2] came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures [Isaiah 45:18]. They are called "nations" in the above passage.... Thus Isaiah teaches that the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whose kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

[Ping-Pong]

I combined some of your questions and statements here:

Rev 17:8....."from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come".....God kew what was going to happen. God knows everything.

You must consider free will. The reason we are here, going through this age, is to determine who we will follow, Satan or God. We are given the freedom, or free will, to make that choice.

Jeremiah 4 almost has me, but you have to keep reading. There's no man in 25, but there's a horseman in verse 29 as well as desolate cities and a woman giving birth in 31. ADAM WAS THE FIRST MAN. Who built the cities? Why does Jeremiah say there are no men if men hadn,t been created? Add in the woman giving birth and this is obviously referencing Revelation, not Genesis.

Begin in vs.23. He tells us that earth became ("was" is incorrect), without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. God didn't create earth like that but it BECAME that way. Is.45:18...He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited...
In vs. 25 He tells us there "was no man and the birds fled". This lets us know this was not Noah's flood he was telling us about. It was before that. In this first flood there was NO MAN, NO BIRDS left on earth- not as Noah's time when there were men and birds.
Vs.26 then tells us that there were cities in that first age. Adam wasn't the "first man" even in this present age but there were cities that Lucifer ruled in that first age. There were men then, they weren't flesh but they were men.
In vs.25 & 26 the tense is past, "there was", but when you go to vs.27 it becomes present and/or future tense, "shall be" so when He speaks of the horsemen in vs.19 it is in future tense.

2Peter3:5-6 is about the first age, not this 2nd age, Noah's time. In Noah's time the world did not perish. In vs. 7 Peter tells us that the "heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment...". 2Peter2:5-6 is about this 2nd age. This is Noah's time.

You said, "I think it was eve who gets the blame here": Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:....Eve was deceived, Adam chose to eat the fruit knowing he would die. The point I was trying to make is that if Satan had sinned before God said "let there be light, then sin would not have entered the new creation through Satan.

Both Adam and Eve can take the blame: Gen.3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

You said, "Sin entered the world through Adam. God would have had absolutely no reason to destroy the world prior to that occurrence".

Sin entered through Adam and Eve in this age. The first age was destroyed because of Satan's rebellion.

Your friend........Ping