Posted on 04/03/2007 6:59:25 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Actually, it's full of Scripture references and quotations. Have you ever actually read it?
Hell is certainly real.
Do you think it is a place in our dimension; in our universe? Do you think you could build a spaceship (or any other sort of vehicle) to fly there ... and fly back?
(Yes, I know people talk about "going to hell and back," but that's a metaphor.)
I think that the afterlife exists on a different plane or state of existence from our own. You can't "get there from here" by normal, physical means because it's not a "place" in our universe in the same sense that Oshkosh, Wisconsin is a place in our universe.
1) God Created the entire universe and everything within it.
2) If Hell is a created place, then God must have made it.
3) Hell is where sinners go, and they go there because God puts them there at death.
4) The Saints only avoid Hell by the grace of God, which they themselves cannot obtain by their own will, only passively receive. The Scripture says the Saints "are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
5) If God is saving us from Hell through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, then He is really saving us from Himself, because He is the one sending us to a place of torture He created for our eternal torment, and the only way to avoid going there is His selective choice.
5) Therefore, such a "god" is both a monster, a sociopath, and doubleminded. He created us to be with Him, then creates a place of torture which we cannot avoid ending up in by our own powers, then proposes to save us from what He Himself made, and to which He Himself supposedly has the power to either send us to or not.
The only reasonable conclusion is that salvation is being saved from God and His place of horrors in Hell that He proposes to send us to.
How do you square such nonsense with the Scriptures "God is love" and "God will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth"? If God really desired such things and was such a reality, He would certainly not place us in the trap of being unable to avoid eternal damnation except by His arbitrary will.
You really don't want to understand this, do you? To say hell is a state doesn't mean it has no physical aspect. It means the physical aspects are intrinsic to the reality of the sinner, and not extrinsic to where the sinner is. The fire of Gehenna came from the constant consumption of the trash tossed into it, not from an external fuel source.
In Jesus' story of Lazarus and the 'rich man', he said the rich man went to Hell, and He described part of that rich man's punishment as being physically thirsty for water.
How did he thirst? He had no body. The thirst he spoke of was from his soul seeing the material fire all about it caused by its eternal consumption as human refuse by the fire of God. The rich man's soul was aflame, and it thirsted because of the fire of its own destruction in the presence of the consumming fire of God.
The fire of God warms and enlightens the saints (Apocalypse 22.5), refines the imperfect by burning away their dross (1 Corinthians 3.12-15), and consumes the damned (Hebrews 12.29, St. Matthew 10.28).
The eternal state of the person is the reaction of their soul to being brought into the presence of God.
Perhaps many people want to deny that Hell is a real "place" because they don't want to fathom what it would be like to be there.
Perhaps you want it to be a real place because you find the whole idea of God loving sinners to be contrary to your picture of Him?
A catechism is most often a exposition of doctrine, commonly used in Christian religious teaching starting near New Testament times. It not just limited to the Catholic church as many posting seem to assume. Many protestant churches have had and still do have catechism. It is always in a question answer format.
This would also work in teaching kids in school.
Question: 1
What is the Preamble to the US Constitution?
Answer: 1
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
If you cannot properly interpret the posting of other FReepers.....
“Did you intentionally not read what others posted? No one is arguing that point, and some explained the mistranslation quite well.
If you cannot properly interpret the posting of other FReepers.....”
I don’t waste time reading misinterpretations. The Bible is rather clear. just thought I’d post some Biblical truth. If truth doesn’t suit you ... well ... you own the problem and need to work that out.
Jesus said the rich man wanted to have a drop of water placed on his tongue. Just for your information, the tongue is part of the human body.
As for your theory about Gehenna and Hell, you said that the fires of Gehenna were perpetual due to the constant dumping of trash into the pit. And what exactly do you think the souls of the damned are, if not trash? In any case, God can keep fires going without any external cause, just as He did with the burning bush and Moses. Hell is indeed a place. Many Saints and visionaries have been allowed to see Hell by God. Fatima, fully 'worthy of belief' by the faithful, is but one example where the visionaries saw hideous monster-like beings, (humans deformed by their sin), being physically tossed to and fro in the raging inferno. Finally, if the Council of Trent, the most definitive Council of all time, declares that Hell is PLACE of physical as well as spiritual suffering, no Pope's personal little catechism can abbrogate that infallible Council.
"Well, I'm sure you'd like to think that, even though it is not really true"
Sorry Andrew, this is the end of this little debate. You simply don't know what you're talking about. And if you believe that catechisms are infallible, defide teachings, (which they certainly are not), then you should adhere to the Catechism of Trent, (aka the "Roman Catechism for Priests"). It was written by a great Saint, (St. Charles Borromeo, who was one of the greatest defenders of the faith in Church history), and promulgated and approved by a sainted Pope; Pope Saint Pius V.
Contrary to modern belief, the Roman Catholic Church was not invented at Vatican II, she has a two thousand year teaching history. Nice talking to ya. Bye.
I think you’re wrong about how he will be remembered. Things did happen on his watch that he might have been able to do more about but they will remember him as he great hearted man who suffered publically for Christ. And who publically loved the Lord incredibly deeply. And he will be sainted. The abuses go back to movement before he was pope and that would have been hard for any pope to stop, because the momentum was already there.
So in your theory here, the Rich Man was already raised from the dead and condemned to hell in his body prior to the general resurrection? Just curious.
In any case, God can keep fires going without any external cause, just as He did with the burning bush and Moses.
See, now you are getting closer! The flame in the burning bush was a manifestation of God.
And there is no external cause of the fires of hell, because hell is not a place full of externally stoked flames and heat. The fires of hell is the fire of Almighty God. It warms the saints and burns the sinners. "Our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12.29)
Hell is a sinner in the presence of God.
Without grace after death, a human being becomes a torch.
"If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth." (St. John 15.6) "If any man shall adore the beast and his image ... He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb." (Apocalypse of St. John 14.9)
The "pure wine" is the light behold with the "lumen gloria" of Psalm 35.10 and Apocalypse 21.23 which enables a person to see God. The wine of the wrath of God is the result of a human without "lumen gloria" beholding the vision of God - the vision itself destroys them in corporeal fire, tormenting the soul spiritually AND physically, and the body physically.
Many Saints and visionaries have been allowed to see Hell by God.
They've also "seen" Angels with wings (e.g., Isaiah 6.2). But we know Angels do not have bodies, so they also do not have wings, correct?
A vision is a means given by God to promote understanding, not necessarily the actual reality of the object.
I have no problem with the Roman Catechism.
You are the one who is denouncing Catechisms pubished on authority of the Pope intended to teach the faith to the Church.
After reading your twisted interpretations I can only think that even the devil can quote Scripture.
"Don't confuse me with the facts, I won't listen" ????
Fine state your own beliefs, if you have any, and lets discuss.
Or are you just a stone chucker?
Then he'll be the first "saint" to ever be questionable. He was a liberal, a radical liberal who did nothing to stop the endless abuses within the Church. In fact all he did was perpetuate those abuses with his eerily ambiguous writings. There is hardly a sentence he ever spoke or wrote that was definitive, that couln't be interpreted to mean two different things. Feminism flourished as never before under his supervision. Homosexual perversion flourished in the priesthood, to the point where certain seminaries were called "the Pink Palace" by some priests. "Inclusive" language found its way into the liturgical readings. No two novus-ordo Masses looked alike, novelty and innovation of the liturgy showed up in every Church. Altar railings were torn down, the sanctuary lost its holy status and became the parading ground for lay people, rock bands, clowns and dancing girls. The high altars were torn down and replaced with a table. The blessed Tabernacles were removed from the center of the Church sanctuary and placed over to the side somewhere, or the back of the Church. The "Four Last Things", (death, judgement, heaven and hell), ceased being preached from the pulpit. In their stead we hear diluted homilies that more often relate to humanist morality than to Christian doctrine.
JP2 ruled over all of this and reveled in it. And what he didn't personally institute from above he most certainly failed to fight against. In fact when certain traditionalist priests and bishops rose up to fight against these novelties and abuses he found it expedient to excommunicate them. Meanwhile, he never, ever excommunicated any cleric for being too liberal, for being a child molester, for teaching heresy. All he ever did to the priest molesters was sanction some of them with defrocking, which falls short of excommunicaton. It is plain to see where this man stood, and what he wanted to do with the Catholic Church.
JP2 ruled over the Catholic Church during a period of time when the Church left its roots, left its traditions, left it faith. JP2 apologized to the world for our Catholic history, he groveled at the feet of apostates. He sent his personal emissary to bless the largest mosque in Italy as soon as its doors opened. He kissed the satanic koran. He made Catholic teachings on evolution ludicrously confusing. JP2 called together a band of heretics and pagans from all religions, including earth worshippers, to "pray" together at Assissi. He brought Indian Cheifs, Rabbis, Hindus, Shintuists, Moslems, every form of anti-Christ on earth into that sacred place so they could pray to their pagan gods and false gods. This was NOT ecumenism, it was an abominable gathering of anti-Christs. True ecumenism was outlined and detailed by Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos. True ecumenism is the bringing of non-Catholics into the Church in conversion, not to show them "tolerance". JP2 wrote in his un-Catholic catechism that Moslems are "children of Abraham", and that they "worship the one God", and are "saved by their faith".
JP2's whole life swirled around the "great Council", as he called Vatican II. To him it was as though nothing prior to that council ever happened. He literally tried to make the Church forget her historical/traditional teachings by ignoring them. He called great gatherings of youth together where they danced to wild pop music and camped out like hippies from the 60's. What they did was not even remotely reminiscent of authentic Catholicism. He brought the heroin-addicted Bob Dylan, who converted to Christianity and later converted out of Christianity, up from the ashes to perform for him at the Vatican. In short, he helped tear the Church to pieces. So in pieces she lies. But the Church will return in all her former power and glory, inspite of JP2.
This is a rather comical claim, given what you've posted is misrepresentations.
A. A place of everlasting destruction: 2 Th 1:9; Phil 3:19; Heb 10:39
"Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1.9) - no mention of a "place".
"Whose end is destruction; whose God is their belly; and whose glory is in their shame; who mind earthly things." (Philippians 3.19) - no mention of a "place".
"But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 10.39) - no mention of a "place".
2. “away from the presence of God”: 2 Th 1:9
2 Thessalonians says "Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"
In Greek, "oitines diken tisousin olethron aisnion apo prosopou tou kurios kai apo tes doxes tes ischuos autou" - "who [the] penalty shall suffer destruction eternal from [the] face of the Lord and from the glory of his power"
The LITERAL reading of that verse is that the vision of God and the glory of His power causes their eternal destruction. This is also how the King James Version reads it. However, I know that modern Protestants love to read all kinds of extra words into the Bible that are not there, but there are no other words there such as you've been quoting, such as "away".
Thus the NASB reads: "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (the word "away" is not in the Greek text)
The RSV reads: "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (the words "and exclusion" are not in the Greek text)
The NIV reads: "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (the words "with" and "shut out" are not in the Greek text)
The Holman version reads: "These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength" (the words "pay", "with", and "away" are not in the Greek text)
The ISV version reads: "Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power" (the words "such people" and "by being seperated" are not in the Greek text).
It must be fun to be a Protestant creating a new Bible "translation". You just add words whenever you want and make the text fit your preconceived notions.
As to Hell, the Psalmist affirms in the clearest terms that God is present to those suffering Hell. He is, after all, omnipresent.
"If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present." (Psalm 138(139).8)
St. John also says this.
"If any man shall adore the beast and his image, and receive his character in his forehead, or in his hand; He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb." (Apocalypse of St. John 14.9-10)
3. A place of suffering, affliction and retribution: 2 Th 1:5-8
"For an example of the just judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which also you suffer. Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: And to you who are troubled, rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, with the angels of his power: In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1.5-8)
That's 0 for 4 on alleged Bible verses stating Hell is a place. You'd be benched were you a ball player with such a record.
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