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Locked on 04/13/2007 1:17:11 PM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:

Childish behavior



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More Evidence Pius XII Was Not Hitler's Pope - German Files Point to a Russian Plot
Zenit News Agency ^ | April 2, 2007

Posted on 04/03/2007 2:32:00 AM PDT by NYer

click here to read article


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To: Uncle Chip
I answered yours. Did you answer mine????

There was nothing in your answer about the actions taken by your church to save the Jews from the Holocaust.

You have none to present. You've been exposed.

61 posted on 04/03/2007 1:02:04 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Uncle Chip
But only if they converted to Catholicism, right?

Really, this is past being ridiculous, you're just flinging mud at the wall now.

False baptismal certificates and identity papers were forged by the Vatican for some Italian Jews. That's not a conversion. No-one was required to convert. Others were simply physically concealed in convents, the Vatican, Castel Gandolfo, the Swiss Guards, etc.

The most famous conversion, that of Rabbi Zolli, took place after the war was over.

. . . and, by the way, what did YOUR church do in Italy or in Germany to resist the Nazis?

62 posted on 04/03/2007 1:04:50 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Campion
Falsely accusing others, and then being evasive when a direct question is asked of you, isn't very becoming Christian behavior.

Neither is denying the truth like the fact that the Vatican was running ratlines for Nazi war criminals to escape prosecution. Are you going to deny that this???

63 posted on 04/03/2007 1:05:41 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
But only if they converted to Catholicism, right?

Would you like to document that assertion?

64 posted on 04/03/2007 1:05:55 PM PDT by Petronski (FRED!)
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To: AnAmericanMother
False baptismal certificates and identity papers were forged by the Vatican for some Italian Jews. That's not a conversion.

OMG!

Is that what he means?

65 posted on 04/03/2007 1:07:21 PM PDT by Petronski (FRED!)
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To: Uncle Chip
Vatican-supported Ustasha

Prove it. The Ustashe were despised by most Italians during the campaign. Even though Hitler had ordered Italian Generals to cooperate with them, most ignored the orders. They were a small percentage of Croats, even though they and later people like you like to imagine they were a larger group.

St. Alojzije Stepinac opposed the Ustashe just as the Pope opposed Nazism. He used his position to shield Jews, Muslim and Orthodox alike. There was a Ex-Franciscan who murdered innocents along side these fascists who was defrocked. If you think a monk who was called "Friar Satan" by his victims is an example of Catholic duplicity, then I don't have much for you.
66 posted on 04/03/2007 1:07:50 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Dominick

Thank you.

I don’t even dignify that Ustasha smear with a response anymore.


67 posted on 04/03/2007 1:10:18 PM PDT by Petronski (FRED!)
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To: Petronski
Well, it was the only thing I could think of.

I suppose the postwar dispute about whether or not to turn over orphans to co-religionists who were not their relatives might enter into it as well. But again, that's not forced conversion, that's a child custody issue, and that all happened after the war was over. Nobody was asking too many questions about conversion while trying to figure out where to squeeze in another couple of refugee families.

And of course, meanwhile, the Kraut commander in Italy just barely talked Hitler out of kidnapping or assassinating Pope Pius . . .

68 posted on 04/03/2007 1:11:50 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Uncle Chip
Why would it be "Forbidden"/ It was not a theological heresy -- it was a political rant -- a totally insane one -- but political none the less.

IMHO, it, along with the Communist Manifesto should be required reading so people can see how evil often masquerades as good.

69 posted on 04/03/2007 1:12:47 PM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: AnAmericanMother

It amazes me that Tito’s filthy defamation campaign continues to this day, right here on Free Republic.


70 posted on 04/03/2007 1:19:36 PM PDT by Petronski (FRED!)
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To: Petronski
Well, some people either have a very deficient knowledge of basic history . . . or an axe to grind.

It's amusing . . . although I'm getting a little tired of both the "Hitler's Pope" and the "Ustache" stories. Never any documentation, just tired old recycled rumors from Communists anxious to discredit the church. Says more about people who credulously swallow the stories whole, than anything else.

71 posted on 04/03/2007 1:21:55 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Uncle Chip
But only if they converted to Catholicism, right?

WRONG.

The Scarlet Pimpernal of the Vatican.

Here is the historical record.....again.

P>... Prior to the Nazi invasion, the Pope had been working hard to get Jews out of Italy by emigration; he now was forced to turn his attention to finding them hiding places. "The Pope sent out the order that religious buildings were to give refuge to Jews, even at the price of great personal sacrifice on the part of their occupants; he released monasteries and convents from the cloister rule forbidding entry into these religious houses to all but a few specified outsiders, so that they could be used as hiding places. Thousands of Jews—the figures run from 4,000 to 7,000—were hidden, fed, clothed, and bedded in the 180 known places of refuge in Vatican City, churches and basilicas, Church administrative buildings, and parish houses. Unknown numbers of Jews were sheltered in Castel Gandolfo, the site of the Pope’s summer residence, private homes, hospitals, and nursing institutions; and the Pope took personal responsibility for the care of the children of Jews deported from Italy."[14]

... Rabbi Lapide records that "in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute."[15]

Notice in particular that the Pope was not merely allowing Jews to be hidden in different church buildings around Rome. He was hiding them in the Vatican itself and in his own summer home, Castel Gandolfo. His success in protecting Italian Jews against the Nazis was remarkable. Lichten records that after the War was over it was determined that only 8,000 Jews were taken from Italy by the Nazis[16] —far less than in other European countries. In June,1944, Pius XII sent a telegram to Admiral Miklos Horthy, the ruler of Hungary, and was able to halt the planned deportation of 800,000 Jews from that country.

The Pope’s efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."[17]

Other Jewish leaders chimed in also. Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, sent a note of thanks to the papal nuncio on April 7, 1944: "It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews. . . . The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."[18]

The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, also made a statement of thanks: "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism...

In Three Popes and the Jews Lapide estimated the total number of Jews that had been spared as a result of Pius XII’s throwing the Church’s weight into the clandestine struggle to save them. After totaling the numbers of Jews saved in different areas and deducting the numbers saved by other causes, such as the praiseworthy efforts of some European Protestants, "The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been the instrument is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability it is much closer to . . . 860,000."[21] This is a total larger than all other Jewish relief organizations in Europe, combined, were able to save. Lapide calculated that Pius XII and the Church he headed constituted the most successful Jewish aid organization in all of Europe during the war, dwarfing the Red Cross and all other aid societies

Jack Chick is not a reliable historian. As much fun as it might be to repeat his lies, they are just that, lies. But you know that.

72 posted on 04/03/2007 1:35:57 PM PDT by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: mockingbyrd
Oskar Schindler heroically saved over 1000 Jews from special treatment.

Pius XII saved eight hundred times as many.

73 posted on 04/03/2007 1:58:09 PM PDT by Petronski (FRED!)
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To: Petronski

Quit bringing facts into this conversation....there’s no room for them here!


74 posted on 04/03/2007 2:03:04 PM PDT by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: mockingbyrd

Were those ratlines running through Pius XII’s Vatican for Nazi war criminals to escape to South America lies as well???


75 posted on 04/03/2007 2:03:08 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
Were those ratlines running through Pius XII’s Vatican for Nazi war criminals to escape to South America lies as well???

What do Tito's archives have to say on the topic? Surely the UDBA must have compiled a juicy dossier describing this topic.

76 posted on 04/03/2007 2:05:15 PM PDT by Petronski (FRED!)
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To: Uncle Chip
"The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been the instrument is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability it is much closer to . . . 860,000."[21] This is a total larger than all other Jewish relief organizations in Europe, combined, were able to save. Lapide calculated that Pius XII and the Church he headed constituted the most successful Jewish aid organization in all of Europe during the war, dwarfing the Red Cross and all other aid societies

Once we have agreed that the Catholic Church, in particularly PIus XII, acted in a heroic and brave manner throughout WWII and single handedly saved more Jewish souls than all other European charities combined WITHOUT DEMANDING CONVERSION as you falsely accused them of, them we will move to actions after WWII.

77 posted on 04/03/2007 2:07:48 PM PDT by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Petronski

The archives are in Washington, DC -—


78 posted on 04/03/2007 2:07:56 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

John Loftus, is that you?


79 posted on 04/03/2007 2:11:08 PM PDT by Petronski (FRED!)
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To: Uncle Chip
When pushed into a corner, you change the subject.

Pathetic.

80 posted on 04/03/2007 2:12:59 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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