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To: PetroniusMaximus; topcat54
As was explained on another thread, the term "rapture" has been twisted out of all recognition and certainly for nearly 1900 years never meant what dispensationalists, a minority among Chrsitians, believe.

Here's topcat's excellent reply...

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." (1 Thess 4:15)

Now, for almost 1900 years every Christian has read this passage and understood the phrase "until the coming of the Lord" to be a reference to the second coming, and so this passage was in reference to that even, with the resurrection of the dead and judgment day. They saw 1 Cor. 15 as the parallel in Paul's thought.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

At Christ's return not only are we all changed – corruption putting on incorruption – but death is finally conquered. There is clearly no place in this passage for a thousands years separating our resurrection and the conquering of sin and death.

But in the slice and dice world of dispensationalism, Paul has confused us by compressing several second comings and several resurrections and a thousand years of actual history all into what seems like one event. Elsewhere I pointed out a similar problem (according to the dispensationalist) with a "plain reading" of Paul earlier in the chapter.

I had the pleasure (of sorts) of listening to John MacArthur this morning on the ride to work. His topic is the second coming. His text was 1 Cor. 15:20-28). I really like Johnny Mac. I listen to him almost every morning. He is generally a very straightforward sort of preacher. When he gets on a roll about God's sovereign election in the salvation of His people, as he did recently at the Ligioner Conference, he can be very good.

But what struck about his message today was the convoluted, uncharacteristically obtuse way he approached the passage. He took a plain, simple passage about Christ and the resurrection, and how there are but two (His and ours; "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming") and twisted into an unrecognizable mess, all because of this tortured eschatology. Amazingly he was able to turn the two resurrections of the text into four!

Here was what some folks have called the best modern preacher in America, if not the entire world, reduced to a twisted mess of illogical expression.

I know it's not your place to defend Johnny Mac or any other dispensationalist, but the fact is MacArthur is the most inarticulate when he is talking about future things. And why is that? Because he is forced to deviate from the plain straightforward text of Scripture and insert all his dispensationally contrived theories.

The Gospel will continue to be preached among all nations and races, benefiting all who hear it with ears given by God for His glory.

Then at a time of God's choosing and unknown to man, Christ will come again to judge the quick and the death. At that exact moment, all history will end. The condemned will be cast aside for all eternity. Those acquitted by Christ's redemption will join Him in heaven forever.

That is Scriptural. That is truthful. That is simple and straightforward and that is what God intends for us to know and live by.

Most everything else is "vain imaginings."

From Charles Spurgeon, "THE PARACLETE" No. 1074. (John 14:16)

"Take care never to impute the vain imaginings of your fancy to the Holy Spirit. I have seen the Spirit of God shamefully dishonored by people -- I hope they were insane -- who have said that they have had this and that revealed to them.

There has not for some years passed over my head a single week in which I have not been pestered with the 'revelations' of hypocrites or maniacs. Semi-lunatics are very fond of coming with messages from the Lord to me, and it may save them some trouble if I tell them once for all that I will have none of their stupid messages. When my Lord and Master has any message to me he knows where I am, and he will send it to me direct, and not by madmen.

Never dream that events are revealed to you by heaven, or you may come to be like those idiots who dare impute their blatant follies to the Holy Spirit.

If you feel your tongue itch to talk nonsense, trace it to the devil, not to the Spirit of God.

Whatever is to be revealed by the Spirit to any of us is in the word of God already -- he adds nothing to the Bible, and never will. Let persons who have revelations of this, that, and the other, go to bed and wakeup in their senses. I only wish they would follow the advice, and no longer insult the Holy Spirit by laying their nonsense at his door."


42 posted on 04/02/2007 12:39:10 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
“As was explained on another thread, the term “rapture” has been twisted out of all recognition and certainly for nearly 1900 years never meant what dispensationalists, a minority among Chrsitians, believe.”

As I have previously quoted to you, the idea of a “rapture” a “harpazo” in 1 Thes. as a yet-to-be literal and historical event is not a “fantasy” nor is it a twisting of scripture. Personally I believe there is no Scriptural evidence to warrant the belief in the rapture occurring before the tribulation period. Other godly people do believe it. I find their arguments unpersuasive. But you statement "the Rapture is a fiction" is ill advised. You may disagree as to the timing, but the "harpazo" will occur.

“Most everything else is “vain imaginings... pestered with the ‘revelations’ of hypocrites or maniacs. Semi-lunatics are very fond of coming...””

Why quote this to me???

Why do Calvinist’s seem to be so perpetually angry?

106 posted on 04/02/2007 8:27:10 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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