Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?

Reformedonline.com ^ | Unknown | Brian M. Schwertley

[Blogger]

Topcat, our conversation has gone on for two threads and multiple hundreds of posts. If I am using “one liners” at this point it is because I have already put forward a scriptural response which has been ignorred and don’t feel like wasting my breath (or keystrokes) at this point.

You are the ones who point to church tradition as a support for your view. We do not. We only show you that the church has not had a preteristic point of view for the most part during most of its life. You ignore even that and use it to throw out more jabs at us.

At this point, the reader can decide who has made their point and who has not.

Have a happy resurrection day.

[Iscool]

With all due respect, there is no reason other than dispensational presuppositions for inserting a gap of (to this point) several thousands of years in between the 69th and 70th weeks.

Romans 11 alone, dispells your theory...The church for the Gentiles was revealed thru the apostle Paul...This period is the time of the Gentiles...The church age...

When the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, God reveals he will go back to his chosen, the Jews...And then, Christ will physically reign on earth as the King...

The fact that you don't believe this only shows that you don't believe what God said...Lotsa educated folks don't believe what God said...

[topcat54]

It’s called the Church Age, prophesied twice by Christ. Once in the upper room discourse, and another time prior to His Ascension.

Please provide specific references, and, more importantly, how they may directly relate to the 70 weeks of Dan. 9.

Thanks.

[topcat54]

Would you say that all of the secrets that are contained in scripture have already been discovered and that there is no reason to expect to find anything new?

I'm not a gnostic. There are no "secrets" in the Bible that need to be "discovered". The first century believers who directly received the gospels, letters, etc could have firgured all that stuff out without a decoder ring.

If anyone says differently they are trying to sell something.

[topcat54]

The church for the Gentiles was revealed thru the apostle Paul

There is no "church for the gentiles". Christ's body includes both Jews and gentile who come to faith in Jesus Christ, the Seed of Abraham. All who blieve on Him are all Abraham's children because of Christ.

There is no gap, except in the mind of Darby and his faithful followers.

The fact that you don't believe this only shows that you don't believe what God said...

On the contrary. I don't believe what you and Darby say God said. That's a very different matter.

[Zechariah11]

I wouldn’t bother with these guys anymore than I’d argue with papists about Mariolatry. The very reason this thread was begun was to satisfy carnal desires and ferment argument.

[Zechariah11]

read “foment argument”

[topcat54]

The very reason this thread was begun was to satisfy carnal desires and ferment argument.

We've manage to reduce most of the pre-tribbers to a quivering mass of non sequiturs and one-liners.

Now the best we seem to get are Monty Pythonesque cries of "Run away! Run away!"

Oh well, I guess we've done our job showing the real root and "substance" of dispensationalism.

[Zechariah11]

Some study small parts of Scripture in order to argue; others spend their time in study -- not to buttress dogmas, but to receive edification, correction, and instruction.

I have a very low opinion of these haughty chaps who abuse the Word attempting to satisfy their vain and petty arguments and belittle others. They are no more worthy than a billboard lawyer using the law as a tool to gainsay and chissel others. They are limited to studying a narrow portion of eschatology and predestination because they love to argue, not to glean or grow.. My father used to complain about engineers who could not carry on a social conversation without discussing engineering. This crowd can only talk TULIP and amillenialism .

Ask them when they last attempted to glean edification and instruction from outside their pet doctrines and they will be stumped

They are also like the Jehovah Witnesses who have studied their arguments and rehearsed them well before knocking on your door -- impressive in their suits and thoroughly prepared to reason from the Scriptures that Christ, in fact, is not God.

These brothers are not worth a minute of time. Let them pat each other on the back and say what great arguments they make. They are about as obnoxious to me as the Leftist idologues who bash Bush.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“We’ve manage to reduce most of the pre-tribbers to a quivering mass of non sequiturs and one-liners.”

I’m not a pre tribber, but your attitude as evidenced in the above comment is a sign that you may be dealing with more personal issues than you let on. You may think you have “all knowlege” but your scornful attitude indicates that it has not profited you.

“Oh well, I guess we’ve done our job showing the real root and “substance” of dispensationalism.”

Hardly.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There are no "secrets" in the Bible that need to be "discovered".

AMEN!

People love puzzles and seem to concoct them out of thin air. The Gospel is a lot clearer than all this dispensational imaginings which, in truth, is simply the wolf of rehashed politics dressed up in the Lamb's clothing.

From all these posts one might assume dispensationalism was the prevailing view of modern Christianity when in fact it is a small minority, a fringe element who look outside the window and declare -- "Today it's raining; so it will rain next month."

The Biblical Basis of Postmillennialism.

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." -- Daniel 2:35

[thebeaver]

I believe the rapture is pre-trib. However, 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Judah will remain behind to spread God's word and fight the Antichrist. Revelation 7 144,000 Sealed, "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,from the tribe of Gad 12,000,from the tribe of Asher 12,000,from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,from the tribe of Levi 12,000,from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000." This gives evidence to a pre-trib rapture, as shown in the quote, "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees" At first glance this may seem harmless, but upon further inspection it matches the description of the ADS laser weaponry system developed by the airforce: a laser that shoots a beam that can penetrate skin and cause immense pain, but does not kill.. Other evidence to this includes Revelation 9:3-5 "And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months." Now, if you were John, and you had just seen tanks, airplanes, and helicopters in a time when these words did not exist, how would you describe them? With words that you knew, hence "locusts" and "scorpions". If anyone should wish to see a picture of a mounted ADS laser system, simply enter the link below, and you will see that it very much matches John's description. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Active_Denial_System_Humvee.jpg

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There is no "church for the gentiles". Christ's body includes both Jews and gentile who come to faith in Jesus Christ, the Seed of Abraham. All who believe on Him are all Abraham's children because of Christ.

There is no gap, except in the mind of Darby and his faithful followers.

AMEN! One would have to read a lot of Darby and Scoffield and very little of the Bible (and ignore Hebrews altogether) to come to another conclusion.

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." -- Romans 9:8

Jesus Christ, the only seed.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:28

[Dr. Eckleburg]

LOL. For “scornful attitude,” check post 349.

Topcat has consistently used Scripture as the foundation of his argument.

Unlike dispys who’ve invented a philosophy out of thin air, much of which directly contradicts the Bible.

[Zechariah11]

Lotsa educated folks

Like lotsa deceitful posts from lotsa non-existent "dudes" who support dat dare dispensationalism, yuck yuck.

[Zechariah11]

Get off your hobby-horse, “doctor,” and broaden your study of the Word. There’s alot of other parts of Scripture which you might find interesting. When was the last time you studied from Isaiah or Jeremiah?

[topcat54]

I’m not a pre tribber, but your attitude as evidenced in the above comment is a sign that you may be dealing with more personal issues than you let on. You may think you have “all knowlege” but your scornful attitude indicates that it has not profited you.

Hmmm, why would you find it necessary to speak about my "attitude" when a myriad of folks from the "other side" have offered their questionable comments?

Let look at some:

"The fact that you don't believe this only shows that you don't believe what God said..." -- iscool {Is it really true that I do not believe God?}

"I have already put forward a scriptural response which has been ignorred ..." -- Blogger {I have never knowlingly ignored any commnts or references.}

" we are still getting charges thrown out at us that are simply untrue." -- Blogger {I have never posted anything that I cannot defend from the Scripture or from the writings of prominent dispensationalists.}

"Ignore and self-congratulate." -- Blogger {after I referenced a post with many Scriptures on the meaning of "resurrection".}

"Oh, I would put my eschatological understanding against what you are proposing any day. As a matter of fact, I have. Still here." -- Blogger

"Indeed! That “missing thing” would be something called a “Biblical eschatology. But I digress..." -- PetroniusMaximus

In #309, I asked you, "The subject of this thread is the pre-trib rapture. Does Papias or any of the other early church fathers speak to this issue?" I never got a response.

And then our friend Zechariah11 bops in with a warning to have no dealing with us infidels.

Curious that I get singled out when lots of folks are copping an attitude.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I've learned not to post to disruptors. It invariably leads to me posting in kind, and I'm trying not to stoop that low.

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4

[Lee N. Field]

When was the last time you studied from Isaiah or Jeremiah?

As part of my usual bible reading cycle (start at the beginning, read through to the end, NT & OT in parallel), I've just finished Isaiah and am now in Jeremiah.

What do you want to talk about?

[Zechariah11]

Topcat, I didn't call you an infidel, did I? I made comparisonsof the hobby-horse crowd to Jehovah Witnesses who study and rehearse their dogmatic arguments..

It was rather obvious that your intent was to bait through Scripture the "dispys" (as our esteemed Dr. Ecklesburg calls them)

How much more profit would it have been to ENLIGHTEN others -- say to the background of a passage in Isaiah, or share archaeological evidences to a passage, share a type of Christ, or give a linguistic insight from the exegesis.

Nah, let's not do that. It's not as fun as mocking, posing, belittling, etc.