Posted on 04/01/2007 8:16:52 AM PDT by AlaninSA
Brother,
The teachings of our Church are enunciated in post #73. Don't let something like this disturb you during Holy Week.
F
Very insignificant.
With all those who were martyred for the faith, a little discussion on FR should be welcomed.
This isn't directed at "you" it was a general question for all catholics. Please take no offense. If you reread the original post, you would see it was all an honest question directed towards those who profess to be catholic. I based this question on my interaction with catholics. This was not directed towards you as an individual.
I'm am so pleased to hear that there are catholics who read and study the bible. Hallelujah. I wasn't questioning how the bible was put together. I wanted to know if when you study the bible does it change your heart? Does it motiate your behavior? That was the point.
However, I have read and studied the bible from beginning to end over the years of being a Christian, however, I would never profess to know everything there is to know in the bible. I don't beleive I will know everything in God's word until his return. I do try to grow and mature in my faith and I certainly know more today then I did several years ago. I pray that those I love and know, who are Catholic, will come to know who Jesus is through his word.
Did you forget my earlier post to you? Collectively, if not individually, Catholics have bashed Protestants here at least as good as they got bashed by them. Neither side has "clean hands" in this. IMO there are very few FReepers who can claim martyrdom who weren't spoiling for a fight beforehand.
My 2 cents.
I know a former Freeper who left specifically because JR allowed Catholics to post. I saw the letter that was sent. To this day, when his name is mentioned, the threads get locked.
Unfortunately, if I spend too much time here reading what is now allowed, my attitude toward my non-Catholic Christian bretheren sours greatly. I find myself becoming an ugly Catholic in the real world.
I understand what you mean. Unfortunately, you will find that with a majority of Catholics you see. Frankly, I see that with the majority of Christians I see (regardless of where they attend worship services).
A trait of the apostolic churches (Latin and Eastern) is that a large amount of emphasis is placed on sacramental grace and on worship/ adoration of God, vice on scripture study. People enter the church through the sacrament of baptism and charismation/ confirmation. They are spiritually fed from the reading of scripture (during the liturgy) and through the Bread of Life (the sacrament of the Eucharist). They are healed through the sacrament of reconcilliation and through the sacrament of annointing of the sick. Their lifelong vocation is imparted through the sacrament of matrimony or the sacrament of Holy Orders. But the Catholic's life is intertwined with the sacraments of the Church. Instituted by Christ, God dispenses His grace to all who wish to receive throughout their lives by means of these sacraments.
These sacraments were instituted in a time when the vast, vast majority of people were utterly illiterate. To tell the typical first century Christian (or 5th Century or 10th Century or 15th Century...and in some parts of the world 21st Century) to sit and read the scriptures would be ludicrous.
Your sisters in law, your best friend, and your 20 close family members don't read the scriptures. OK, I am sorry for that. They probably don't read papal documents or any other theological text, either. Do they pray the Rosary on a regular basis? Do they go to Mass weekly or daily? Do they go to Confession regularly? When they are seriously ill (e.g., in hospital), do they receive an annointing from a priest? Are those who are married married only once or are they serial monogamists?
I ask this because, if not, they may qualify themselves as bona-fide CINOs (Catholics in Name Only). You say that a couple of them never go to church. They probably have earned the coveted CINO title. You invited them to your church? Good for you! Of course, I'd rather see them back into the Church, but if you can get them interested in some variety of Christianity, that's a far better sight than seeing them do nothing at all.
But let me ask you something. For those who do fully participate in the sacraments as they should, what is their fruit like?
As a sidebar, one thing you've mentioned twice, now, is that some of these "Catholic" friends say that there is more than one way to get to heaven. I've heard that before and it is a perversion of an actual teaching:
We believe that the only way to Salvation is through Christ. Unquestionably. Christ is the Light and this Light illuminates men's souls. We believe that the fullness of that light is revealed in Christ's Church (i.e., the Catholic Church). Those who turn away, of their own accord, from that Light will be condemned to eternal darkness unless they return to the light.For years and years, the Catholic Church taught that those who were guilty of the crimes of heresy, schism, and apostasy were turning away from that light. However, in recent decades, the Church has come to recognize that the children of those who turned away from that light cannot be held accountable for the sins of their fathers. That Christ is mentioned and that people are, in fact, being baptized and repenting of their sins and living holy lives. The Light of Christ is shining on their lives as well. Honestly, we don't believe that the fullness of Christ's revelation is carried in those groups...but it clearly is not as if those groups are not Christian.
Then we come to the idea of Old Testament times. Were Elijah, Abraham, Isiah, Moses, David, and all of the other great heroes of the Old Testament condemned to eternal damnation because Christ had not come yet? Or was there some way that God could impart His grace to them in anticipation of the sacrifice of His Son? (think about the Transfiguration)
And what about the children? What if a child dies before he is baptized?
And what about the barbarian who, although he has NEVER heard the name of Christ, lives an upright and moral life?
In this last case (and this is where the teaching is often perverted), the Church teaches that we should not lament for that barbarian. The Church teaches that God, in His infinite Mercy, will somehow make a way for that barbarian to avoid the eternal fire. See Romans 2:13-15 --
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.Rom 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
Unfortunately, this teaching is often perverted into saying that there are many ways to get to heaven. Heard it before...
As to your studying of scripture, there is an ancient technique taught in the Church to accomplish this...made popular by the Benedictine Order. It's called lectio divina.
Anyway, I, too, enjoy the conversation far better than just pointing fingers and arguing...
Sure they go to church every single weekend and they attend catechism, and their children go to catholic school, but they don't read the bible at all throughout the week.
I call shenanigans. An adult doesn't "attend" Catechism. I wonder about your story.
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It isn't a "story", I probably should have typed attendED. It was a simple mistype. But if you wouldn't take things out of context, the point was they don't know much of anything about God's word and they have been in the church their whole lives. Their children attend Catholic school right now!
These are not just some made up people. These are people who I love and interact with on a daily basis. It is my heart's desire and prayer to God for them, that they may be saved.
Do you beleive that Jesus is God?
Jack Chick has a "ministry" where he distributes comic book tracts. The vast, vast majority of them excoriate the Catholic Church. To call them inflammatory is the understatement of the century (go to my profile and scroll down to see a couple of samples). In fact, the current Religion Moderator has banned them from being posted, because they are so inflammatory.
Catholics saying that something is "Jack Chick" is a codeword for conspiracy theory anti-Catholicism...comic book anti-Catholicism.
Just looked at your profile ... looks like Jack-o has got himself a new artist, with some actual talent! Amazing. The paranoid conspiracy theory stuff is worse than ever, though. Let's not forget to pray for those poor, lost souls. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
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It's really ugly stuff.
I completely agree.
This question was only directed towards you, not Catholics. I asked it to make sure I was dealing with someone who believed as I do, otherwise, I would end this conversing.
Remember, these are people I love who I am referring to. I want what is best for them. I assure you it no shenanigan!
You can say that again!
Oh, you did! ;-)
The scary part is that there are some who fully endorse it. Some (the vast minority, I'll add) who post on the FR Religion Forum.
A lot of people who post in this section have had a lot of hurt. Have been accused of much. Have been slandered due to their faith. Nerves are pretty raw and have been for many months. (Noticed your join date...that's why I thought I'd mention this)
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I can believe it.
What is shortwave?
Shortwave radio. :)
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