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Telling couples who are having trouble with NFP for whatever reason, "If you do this and that, your problems will be over. It's worked for me and a lot of people I know," would be like me telling a couple who is having trouble conceiving even though they know NFP, "If you do this when the signs are that way, you'll get pregnant. It's always worked for me."

You are right. This is the earth. Many times the glass is at least half empty.

It is amazing that God would come to earth and die horribly on a cross for love when He could have chosen "the Last Temptation." Smashing death and sin via its own strength. Suffering accepted has brought about ultimate joy for sinners! The Lamb of God, the first born male, unblemished lives the passover for our sins. And then we consume that Lamb and drink His blood. God is so glorious.

In the end, in some individual cases, a marriage is based on acceptance of you say "no matter how attentive, loving, patient, and skilled the husband is, he may not be able to fully compensate for his wife's hormonal state."

It is good that you have shown me that it is just NFP and not a sacrament. NFP is just NFP. It is birth control and not Contraception and it cannot make all things new. Only Christ can do so.

You lost me with "Paul says "Do not deprive each other, except...to be free for prayer." You could use that against the NFP only argument.

NFP allows for prayer during the time of abstinence, what do you mean? I do not understand. Do you imply that only prayer such as the Mass is allowed when a couple abstains? Do you think St. Paul meant that? If so, how?

With NFP, a couple has the choice of actually offering up one's desire for sexual intercourse. This is an opportunity for prayer. When one offers up his or her desires for the sake of other(s), one prays. No? In NFP, both the husband and the wife can offer up their "highest" desires for their love or for the other ... Instead of engaging in contraceptive sexual intercourse during the fertile time, the couple can mutually agree to pray with NFP and abstinence. Thus the same end is achieved ... no pregnancy. With NFP the fertile time is, as you (and St. Paul) have pointed out, a time to pray. With contraception the fertile time is a time to engage in forced-broken sexual intercourse. (Is that prayer?) The means are different but the end is the same.

The Lamb of God, the first born male, unblemished lives the passover for our sins. And then we consume that Lamb and drink His blood.

God is so glorious? Or is it: God is so perverse? ... being consumed by us sinners. Glorious? The twist ... the paradox of Christianity ... it makes no sense. Accepting suffering! IT IS PERVERSE! YOU ARE RIGHT Mrs. VS and Scotswife.

One might interpret Saint Paul as saying the only valid reason to deprive each other is for prayer - a time of special focussing on God, and presumably by mutual consent.

It doesn't answer the questions: Is non-conceptive NFP moral? Is artificial contraception immoral?

Mrs VS