Posted on 03/12/2007 5:52:37 AM PDT by NYer
*************
Could be. :)
LOL! I dozed off partway through :-).
Darn. I do that, usually the last five minutes of a show I've made myself watch for two hours! Argggh. Well, we tried.
:-).
You didn't know? Ohhhh.......it's been quite some time now!
Wait........something's coming to me.......ahhhh yes..... it's all becoming clearer......I see a building......people are entering........and there's a beautiful sign above the door.....it's.....wait, wait........"Cap'n D's"!!
And there's a message.......yes, that's it!!! It's Friday! "Go eat lunch!"
Gotta dash.
:-)
You took that one in good spirits. Chalk one up for you.
“that group who have maliciously attacked Catholicism, JP II, and the office of the pope”
I’d like to see an example of such a malicious attack.
“There was no NECESSITY whatsoever nor can there ever be of rebellion against papal authority”
Can never be? So, do you believe in the infallibility of the pope in all matters?
“I fail to see the significance distinction between John Paul the Great directly excommunicating the SSPX ringleaders and noting for the record that they have excommunicated themselves latae sententiae.”
I do see a significant difference.
“(that unless they consecrated illicit bishops their tastes might continue to be offended by the Vatican's refusal to obey the schismatics)”
No, the argument was that unless they consecrated bishops without permission the SSPX and the Tridentine Mass would be destroyed by the hostile bishop selected by Vatican functionaries.
“There are plenty of reverent Novus Ordo Masses available to you.”
There are none. I have attended Mass at every Church in this diocese. It started last Easter with being unable to run a priest to ground to obtain absolution, then segued to the priest putting on a cowboy hat and swanning about in front of the altar talking about how it was his “Easter bonnet.” Another priest preached raw communism and denied the miracles set forth in the Bible, yet another used his homily to preach that illegal aliens are wonderful and anyone who wants to protect the borders is offending Our Lord, still another put a hot tub in front of the altar and did full-immersion baptisms…several of the churches have no crucifixes, all of them hide the tabernacle, and the priests all disappear from Sunday afternoon till their miserly dispensation of the sacrament of absolution from 15:30:00 till 15:30:01 on Saturday afternoon. It has been a farging nightmare.
Then I googled Bishop Michael Driscoll, and things came into focus.
So, no, don’t you dare tell me that there are plenty of reverent Novus Ordo Masses available to me. Talking to these priests is like posting on DU. They’re not even willing to discuss it; their eyes glaze over, they say, “There are plenty of people who are not complaining,” and their raw, satanic hatred burns through their eyes.
This is the Stepford Diocese, and the only reason I don’t write and publish an article with that title is that the only people who would publish it would do it only to harm the Church.
“There are also venues where you can attend Tridentine Masses approved by the diocesan ordinary.”
Not within at least several hundred miles, there aren’t.
“If you don't live in one, move.”
You may be Scrooge McDuck with money bins, but I am not.
“We did. That probably won't be necessary since B-XVI will probably cause wider availability of the Tridentine.”
Unless he fires Driscoll, that will have no effect here.
“SSPX is an anti-Catholic schism whose leaders are excommunicated. That puts the disobedient and rebellious and excommunicated SSPXers in a bit different category from Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines and other actual orders”
They were not excommunicated at the time that they were promised they could nominate their own bishops, nor at the time that the Vatican pulled the bait-and-switch. That argument, therefore, does not hold water.
“which, whatever their problems, are in communion with the Holy See and in good standing (for better or for worse) as Catholics.”
As was SSPX, right up until they consecrated the bishops without permission.
“Why should the Church seek the opinions of those who are excommunicated”
They weren’t excommunicated at the time.
“So you were unsettled by Assisi. So what? No one appointed you or those in SSPX to micromanage the pope.”
Yo, homes, I have as much responsibility for my own conscience as everyone else. Besides, we’re not arguing about whether we must give the pope blind obedience or enlightened obedience…we all know that we must give him enlightened obedience.
If a pope denied the holocaust, what would be our responsibility? If a pope declared pederasty a sacrament, what would be our responsibility? If a pope accords paganism equal status with Christianity, what is our responsibility?
“I find it continually amazing that so many SSPX symps have such a problem with John Paul the Great and so absolutely little to say as to WWI's Benedict XV”
You are amazed that people are more focused on what is happening during their own lifetimes than with the past? Seems pretty obvious to me.
“(Della Chiesa), who actually canceled Pope St. Pius X's anti-Modernist program rather immediately after Pope St. Pius X's death leaving it to summer underground for fifty years until its perfidy burst forth forty years ago or so”
Pope St. Pius X's anti-Modernist program was perfidy? Really? Elkster, modernism is of and from Satan. Holding hands during the Pater Noster is of and from Satan. Forcing people to stand for communion is of and from Satan. Inclusive language, denial of miracles, platoons of lay people dispensing the Eucharist during mass, this horrible OCP music, the bad translations of the Gloria and the rest of the Mass, all these things are of and from Satan. And opposing it is perfidy?
“or as to John XXIII or Paul VI.”
Being so well-informed yourself, you might not be giving full consideration to the degree to which these things have been suppressed, simply by not reporting them. If I had not been on FR for the past 9 years, I wouldn’t even know what you’re talking about with John XXIII or Paul VI. I would bet I could go to Sunday Mass at any Church here in Stepford and be unable to find a single parishioner who would have the faintest notion what you’re talking about.
“You are not unsettled by the abuse heaped upon John Paul the Great here by the cheerleaders for the taste-offended schismatics and excommunicati?”
(1) It should be beneath you to refer to modernist depredations as matters of “taste.”
(2) I have seen disagreement, but don’t recall “abuse.”
“Each man was pope and entitled to exercise the keys during his tenure”
Entitled, and capable of error.
“Many here throw the term "Modernist" around as though it were not the heresy defined by Pascendi Domenici Gregis and by Lamentabile Sane (each published one hundred years ago this year by, ironically, Pope St. Pius X) but rather anything and everything that offends their infernally worshiped tastes.”
That looks like it might be a valid argument, but without an example, I can’t be sure. When you’ve spent a lot of time in Satan’s vest pocket, you come to know his smell, and when you come across it, it offends you.
“You have drunk the SSPX Kool Aid.”
I think that to Bush Derangement Syndrome we’re going to have to add SSPX Derangement Syndrome. I’ve been to a single SSPX Mass, and am doing my best to arrive at the truth of this.
“We could use a man like Torquemada again to "correct" renegade Frnch Archbishops like Marcel and others of his ilk like de Mallerais, Williamson and Fellay.”
I rather think that, if Torquemada were alive today, he’d start with Kaspar and Mahoney, not the SSPX.
“I certainly think John Paul the Great made mistakes (prudential errors) in not nuking these worthless SSPX miscreants more vigorously than he did.”
And I think he made a mistake in not treating them like everyone else, instead of condoning their destruction by forcing a hostile bishop on them.
“You suggest that, if Pope John Paul the Great knuckled under to LeFebvre and obeyed that infernally insolent traitor to the Faith, there would have been "no schism, no controversy" because the pope would have approved, as ordered by the rebel archbishop who massacred his vow of obedience, more rebels as bishops.”
No, that is a distortion. At the time of the selection of bishops, the SSPX and everyone in it was in communion with the Church. There was no insolence, no disobedience, nothing. If at that time John Paul had treated SSPX like everyone else, with justice and fairness, instead of condoning the attempt to destroy them, there would have been no schism or controversy.
“Whatever you may think, that would have had the consequence of undermining papal authority as surely as Dubya's authority would be undermined by putting Osama bin Laden in charge of the Pentagon.”
Nonsense. The only conceivable way that could be true is if we define the survival of the Tridentine as something that undermines papal authority.
“That business of SSPX being somehow responsible for the "survival of the Tridentine" is the essential lie underlying SSPX.”
You have never presented any strong argument to that effect.
“He is dead and his successors have not been worthy”
That’s what I’m talking about.
“It has worked for me. It can work for you.”
The Bishop and Priests of this diocese do not even recognize the laity’s right to a reverent and non-offensive NO Mass. They view the pulpit as their own Pravda for the dissemination of leftist politics and heresy, and anyone who doesn’t knuckle under as a deadly enemy. This is truly the DU analog of dioceses.
“All they have to do is accept the obligation of Catholics to submit to Church authority.”
No, blast it, it is not as simple as you would paint it. Maybe SSPX derangement syndrome is clouding your thinking, I don’t know.
The Church has enemies within, and they are doing Satan’s work. One of the things Satan wants is to stamp out the Tridentine. You would require all Catholics to cooperate with Satan, simply because his minions have infiltrated the hierarchy. Where’s the sense in that?
“People who won't submit may be decent Christians but they are NOT good Catholics.”
I never claimed to be either. However, I do think I have an obligation to try and figure things out. I would much rather not have to think. I would much rather just be able to trust bishops and priests in all things, but it has not been God’s will to prevent evil from infiltrating the seminaries.
“You are aware that it was the same Paul VI who talked of the "smoke of Satan surround(ing) our altars" who promulgated the Novus Ordo and effectively if not officially suppressed the Tridentine?”
Yes, and the smoke of Satan talk was part of his finally realizing what he had done.
“Necessarily, you cannot very well just praise him”
I said I agreed with him about one thing. That’s hardly hagiography.
“Whatever his drawbacks and failures I don't think Paul VI saw himself as "the smoke of Satan."
No, but I think he finally saw that he had opened the door for it.
“If they cared for the pope and the Church, they would sit down, shut up and do as they are told by legitimate authority…”
The Soviets infiltrated a lot of moles into Catholic seminaries. Such a mole is to be obeyed as he works to destroy the Church from within because he has “legitimate” authority?
All legitimacy derives from God. When a priest tells me that the Transformation didn’t really happen, he is not legitimately exercising his authority.
“If popes are capable of prudential error (and they certainly are), so are you.”
Yes, but I still have to keep doing the best I can.
“You owe respect and obedience to the pope in all things moral (tasteful or not) if you want to be a good Catholic man.”
While not claiming to be a good Catholic man, so far as I am aware I give the Holy Father what is owed him. I worked very hard to find a way to agree with John Paul’s decision to allow heretics and pederasts to work their evil, instead of hammering them flat.
“I take it that you accept Novus Ordo as a legitimate Mass.”
It is at the same time legitimate and a victory for Satan, in that it is inferior in every way to the Tridentine. It is intended to be the first step in further attacks on the Mass, until it’s completely watered down and shorn of power.
I would attend the NO here if only they could refrain from bashing me across the face with a rotten halibut at every Mass. Every time I walk in, I am wondering what new surprises Satan will have for me today. Will it be God referred to as She, to the applause of the “faithful?” Will it be a special program of awful ditties performed by a trio of guitarists? Another miracle denied? The United States insulted and scorned? Jesus held up as a communist? How can I receive the Eucharist with the emotions these things cause rotting my heart? Even assuming I was able to ambush a priest and get him to give me absolution.
“I am a bit long in the tooth. This Saint Hipster Doofus: was he of the Haight-Ashbury Doofuses or of the Greenwich Village Doofuses, or martyred at Woodstock or Altamont? I just don't remember :).”
There is a dispute as to whether he actually lived, or was only a shared hallucination. However, it is said that he frequented La Petite Café in Denver in 1967-68.
Where do you live? I changed to the Byzantine Rite to avoid this stuff, but unfortunately, I often found myself living places where there was no Byzantine Rite liturgy. Now I live in an area of Florida that is notable for its non-descript liturgy. And non-descript is probably about the best you can hope for now. We have one raving heretic, at the university parish, unfortunately, but the rest are indifferent elderly Americans who think we want to know what they watched on television, many FBI (foreign born Irish), some of whom have recently been caught embezzling (although not in my diocese), and a number of Indian priests who are actually not heretics and still seem to believe they should be visiting the sick, etc. And then we have some young, new American-born priests who had to fight to get into the seminary and fight to get ordained, but are now out there practicing their Latin at night...So things are looking better.
But I entirely understand your attitude when you live in a diocese like that, because I have been through it.
We tried Greek Orthodox for a few weeks, but it just isn't home.
I have no desire to spar uselessly with you over Marcel's poisonous little schism. His defenders will continue to serve and drink his Kool Aid. Catholics (those in communion with the Holy See) will continue to be Catholics. SSPX schismatics will continue to be schismatic. SSPX excommunicati, despite their infamous whining that they know better than John Paul the Great and that they know they have not been excommunicated whatever a mere pope may rule, will still be excommunicati unless and until they receive (an utterly undeserved) mercy from B-XVI or any future pope. They won't deserve it until they grovel and they are unlikely, in their schismatic and infernal pride, to grovel. Whatever any pope decides is good enough for me but I truly hope they are not allowed to return to the Catholic Church without profound penance and extraordinary humiliation.
The SSPX most certainly SHOULD BE DESTROYED. It has earned that destruction. The Tridentine Mass, as B-XVI is apparently about to prove does not, never did and never will depend on the infamous ecclesiastical crimes of Marcel, et al. No one died and left any of the schizzies pope. No one relieved any of the clerics among them of their vows to obey the popes.
You have seen plenty of the SSPX malicious attacks on Church and pope and papacy but you mistook them for strawberry shortcake, a continuing problem for schism sympathizers.
So who is Bishop Michael Driscoll. Which diocese is his? How old is he? How is his health?
You have suffered so under him that mere money should not inhibit you in moving to Rockford or Phoenix or Oakland or St. Louis or Denver or Colorado Springs or Fort Worth or Amarillo or New Orleans (some very nice bargains on real estate there) or St. Augustine or Chicago or Green Bay or....... most dioceses in America which now allow Tridentine Masses as well as reverent Novus Ordo Masses. If the destination of your immortal soul is not more important than money, what is?
If the Novus Ordo is inferior to the Tridentine "in every way", does that mean Novus Ordo is LESS legitimate? Why?/Why not?
You see a difference between excommunication and excommunication because you have drunk the Old 666 SSPX Kool Aid.
Does resistance to "illegal" aliens have something to do with the schismatic "faith" of the SSPX excommunicati? Aren't there many Catholics among those Mexicans? Aren't at least some of them wonderful? Are they God's beloved children as much as are you and I? Bordermania is not very popular with the actually Catholic bishops here or abroad including the late John Paul the Great.... Oh, OK, I get it. SSPX would deny that Monday follows Sunday if John Paul the Great had said so.
No pope ever denied the Holocaust. That was the excommunicated schismatic SSPX Bishop Williamson who denied the Holocaust.
The schizzies SAY they were promised the "right" to name their own bishops. Who the hell were these impudent Marcellian upstarts to have a "right" granted to no other order? In fact, Marcel signed off on the documents of Vatican II as a Council Father and ALSO signed off on his obligation to obey the pope on the consecrations BEFORE they occurred and proceeded to massacre that written commitment along with his priestly vow of obedience. In the Middle Ages he would have been apprehended, tried, convicted and burned at the stake. Regrettably, we live in weak-kneed times when the Church's actual rights cannot be vindicated.
Burning at the stake Mahoney, Kaspar, (apparently) your Driscoll, Weakland, and dozens of other aging AmChurch types would suit me fine so long as deMallerais, Fellay, Willaimson, et al., burn right along with them.
In any event, this "dialogue" is becoming a vast waste of my time and another opportunity for advertising of Marcel's nasty little schism. Catholics will continue to be about the business of being Catholics. Schismatics and excommunicati will continue to be about the business of being schismatics and/or excommunicati.
Report Driscoll to the Congregation on Bishops and all those bad priests to the Congregation for Priests. No point in reporting them to SSPX any more than it would make sense to report them to the United "Church of Christ" or to the Unitarians.
If John Paul the Great had treated the SSPX "with justice and fairness" he would have hired Jack Bauer to do what had to be done. Instead, he decided to be more merciful and get treated by SSPX and their symps as though he were Simon LeGree.
What on earth is the "Transformation?" Do you mean Transfiguration????
Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia!
Roma Locuta. Causa Finita.
Ummmm, livius referenced Eastern Rite (Catholic) not Eastern Orthodox Church. There is a difference. Perhaps, NYer would care to explain it to you or livius can do so.
No, I'm not very comfortable with the Greek chant, liturgy, etc. It takes some getting used to if you don't grow up with it, I suspect.
There are many Catholic Byzantine rite churches (Maronite, Melkite, etc). While they all use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, some of the rites may be more comfortable than others to Western ears. I don't particularly care for Maronite chant, but the Maronite church (mostly Lebanese) is united with Rome and many people (NYer, for example) who live in a bad diocese have been able to take refuge there.
There is also the Byzantine rite that came from the Carpatho-Russian immigrant community and has the same liturgical forms and chant as those used by the Russian Orthodox. I found that a little more familiar, but the problem is that there are not many of these churches outside of certain parts of the Midwest and big cities, so it's almost as hard to find a Byzantine Rite liturgy as to find a Tridentine Rite mass. So that's not much help.
I hope you get a good bishop soon, or even if you don't, that the motu propio comes through and makes it possible for you to get a Tridentine Rite mass somewhere nearby.
We are putting Driscoll on the list (Idaho? Who'd a thunk it?) for burning along with Tod Brown and McPhony, as well as Fellay, Williamson, de Mallerais, and any other SSPX excommunicant impudently posing as Catholic. Nutjobs roasting on an open fire! Old Scratch gobbling up their toes.....
“You need reading lessons. It is the Modernist heresy that I referenced as perfidy”
Really? Let’s take another look: “…(Della Chiesa), who actually canceled Pope St. Pius X's anti-Modernist program rather immediately after Pope St. Pius X's death leaving it to summer underground for fifty years until its perfidy burst forth forty years ago or so”
According to the rules of English grammar and usage, “it” and “its” refer to “program.” That may not be what you intended to say, but it is, in fact, what you said.
“If you knew Church history, you would not guzzle SSPX Kool Aid.”
I hardly think it is accurate to refer to a critical examination as “guzzling Kool Aid.”
“The Tridentine Mass, as B-XVI is apparently about to prove does not, never did and never will depend on the infamous ecclesiastical crimes of Marcel, et al.”
I think it is crystal clear that, if not for their “infamous ecclesiastical crimes,” the Tridentine would now be completely suppressed, and it would be forbidden even to discuss it.
“You have seen plenty of the SSPX malicious attacks on Church and pope and papacy but you mistook them for strawberry shortcake, a continuing problem for schism sympathizers.”
Well, prove that to the lurkers. Trot one out, and let everyone see how I mistake it for strawberry shortcake.
“You have suffered so under him that mere money should not inhibit you”
Well, you see, my yard apes have developed this perplexing habit of wanting to eat *every* day. They also insist on sleeping inside. Now, I myself could skip a few meals and sleep under the sky, but I think that my duty to provide my kids food and shelter has to be at the top of my to-do list. If you think it would please Our Lord for me to uproot our family again and arrive in some strange town penniless, homeless, and jobless, I’m willing to listen to your reasoning.
“If the Novus Ordo is inferior to the Tridentine "in every way", does that mean Novus Ordo is LESS legitimate? Why?/Why not?”
I am under the impression that legitimacy is a matter of meeting a threshold, yes or no, on or off, one or zero. The question of a Mass’s power or value as spiritual food is, I think, a separate question.
“You see a difference between excommunication and excommunication because you have drunk the Old 666 SSPX Kool Aid.”
Every time you repeat that “Kool Aid” line, you just lend credence to a charge of SSPX Derangement Syndrome.
“Does resistance to "illegal" aliens have something to do with the schismatic "faith" of the SSPX excommunicati?”
I have no idea. As I have said many times, I have attended exactly one SSPX Mass.
“Aren't there many Catholics among those Mexicans? Aren't at least some of them wonderful? Are they God's beloved children as much as are you and I?”
Those statements are as irrelevant to the issue as they are true. Control of borders and immigration is a legitimate function of government, and nothing in Christianity mandates disobedience of a government’s legitimate actions in these areas.
“Bordermania is not very popular with the actually Catholic bishops here or abroad including the late John Paul the Great.”
JPII didn’t spend his youth and young adulthood in a communist country without it affecting him in any particular. As with so many in the Catholic hierarchy, his political compass was precessed.
“No pope ever denied the Holocaust.”
That was a hypothetical, demonstrating the principle that there are things that would rightfully elicit disobedience to a pope.
“The schizzies SAY they were promised the "right" to name their own bishops.”
Did they? They used that word in English? I have been a translator for going on two decades now, and I don’t rely on the translations of hostile witnesses in matters of this sort.
“In any event, this "dialogue" is becoming a vast waste of my time”
Yes, it seems so, given that you are utterly unwilling even to consider that Modernist heretics in the Vatican bureaucracy may have acted wrongly vis-à-vis the SSPX.
“Report Driscoll to the Congregation on Bishops and all those bad priests to the Congregation for Priests.”
How does one do that, and why should I think it wouldn’t be an utter waste of time?
“If John Paul the Great had treated the SSPX "with justice and fairness" he would have hired Jack Bauer to do what had to be done. Instead, he decided to be more merciful and get treated by SSPX and their symps as though he were Simon LeGree.”
More SSPX Derangement Syndrome.
"What on earth is the "Transformation?" Do you mean Transfiguration?”
My senior moments are becoming so frequent that they are in danger of merging. Sometimes I catch them on proofreading; sometimes I don’t. If you want to use that against me, there’s nothing I can do about it.
“Roma Locuta. Causa Finita.”
Rome may speak again, and history has yet to clear her throat.
I guess my obvious intent being distorted for the usual schismatic apologist purposes is just another one of those schismatic things that I just don't understand. I am being "unfair" (a word that I don't tolerate from my kids) to the justly whacked schizzies.
The Modernist heresy simmered underground for fifty years after della Chiesa (Benedict XVI-WWI pope) improvidently and without prudence canceled the salutary effort of Pope St. Pius X to crush that Modernist heresy. As even more modern day enemies of the Church than the Modernists, the SSPX schismatics and excommunicati defy papal authority, despise the Vatican, call the Vatican itself "Modernist" and therefore heretical and then simper like infants over being recognized as excommunicated (leaders and adherents) and schismatic (all of them and SSPX itself. I trust I make myself clear.
You are, like the schizzies, not engaged in "critical examination" of anything. You are attacking the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church. That you are dismayed with your bishop is understandable as it is understandable for folks in Los Angeles, New Hampshire, Orange, Baltimore, DC, and a dwindling number of other jurisdictions. Jesus Christ promised to be with the Church all days even unto the end of the world whatever you or the schizzies may suppose as self-appointed critics of His Church. It is true that H did not promise that you would be delighted with each facet. You can bet that no actual Catholic is a cheerleader for Marcellian schism and that Marcel has no responsibility whatsoever for anything positive in the Church other than by necessitating Ecclesia Dei, its recognition of the excommunication of Marcel and his adherents and the fact that his movement is a schism. Guzzling SSPX Kool Aid is, ummmm, guzzling SSPX Kool Aid.
Do your own research. I would note that most of your schizzie buddies are long gone from here.
I was not aware of Idaho being such a mecca of prosperity that one dare not leave even for the protection of one's children's souls.
What it really boils down to is the fact that you do not like the Novus Ordo and so, though it is the making immanent of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the altar, it just isn't good enough for you. You say that there are no reasonably available reverent Novus Ordo Masses in your area or diocese and, in saying that the NO is inferior to the Tridentine in every way, we are left to wonder just what would be an adequately reverent NO Mass in your offended opinion and just what it would take for those Vatican Modernist heretics to do to see to it that there will be a reverent NO Mass in the Boise Diocese or a Tridentine one, short of canning your bishop on your demand (I agree he should be canned but for Catholic reasons).
One certainly need not be deranged as a Catholic to despise the enemies of the Church. People who consecrate bishops of their own choosing in direct violation of papal orders are enemies of the Church. Members of the Church who despise such acts of the Church's enemies are called rational. The enemies (SSPX) who claim to be Catholic while striking against the authority of the pope, are, ummmm, deranged. The proper analogy to Bush Derangement Syndrome is John Paul the Great Derangement Syndrome. Each of those syndromes is an auto attack mode in which dissident and disloyal elements, dishonestly claiming virtues not in evidence, play illegitimate Robocop against legitimately constituted authorities and their exercise of their authority. This is not your understanding because you have already sipped the you know what (and that is NOT a reference to the Eucharist under both kinds).
Whether one "adheres to SSPX" is likely not a matter of how many SSPX Masses you have attended (an automatic canard of the schism which is usually followed by the parts but only parts of Monsignor Perle's letter to a fellow in Australia affirming that the SSPX Masses are legitimate Masses in spite of declaration of schism and of excommunications of SSPX leaders and may satisfy Mass obligations. Of course, no one is encouraged to frequent the near occasion of sin on a regular basis. It is obvious that you are a verrrrrry vigorous defender of the schism and the excommunicati that run it despite that one and only one instance of attending the SSPX Mass.
You may recall that you brought up a complaint about a Boise Diocesan priest defending the "illegal immigration" that is such an obsession to so many here. Do you deny that John Paul the Great placed a higher priority on the rights of immigration than on arbitrarily drawn borders???? Or that the American bishops are likewise pro-immigration, legal or not???? that is another "taste" question in which there is resistance almighty to change that is already sealed. The issue is over, done, kaput, etc. NO ONE is going to round up the "illegals" and their American born children are CITIZENS. I wonder if you wanted the Holy Family to have "papers" when they fled Herod and went into Egypt. Should the Egyptians have killed Jesus, Mary and Joseph as "illegals" when Christ was just an infant?
John Paul the Great lived in a relatively free Poland from his birth in 1920 to the arrival of the nazis when he was 20 years old. He spent the next five years in nazi (not communist) occupied Poland. He then was ordained to the priesthood in 1946 as a very old 26-year old whose girl friend had been summarily executed on a roadside by the Gestapo. The then Karol Wojtlywa and the girl had apparently co-operated with the anti-nazi underground. We call facts of this sort "history" because it IS history.
Is "precessed" another senior moment? What does "precessed" mean? That frequency and merging are evident.
Causa finita. Rome may speak again on Ecclesia Dei to underline it. The sun may appear to rise in the West but don't bet your soul and the souls of your family on it. It seems unlikely, however possible, that papal authority will be exercised to deny the truth of John Paul the Great's Ecclesia Dei. The keys are now Benedict XVI's but, as head of the Holy Office, he was quite involved in disciplining SSPX along with Cardinal Gantin and John Paul the Great. If the Tridentine is granted widespread usage without any relief to the ecclesastical criminals of SSPX, the schismatic heathen will certainly rage, won't they?
Well, this isn't a discussion any more. You're accusing me of all sorts of perfidy, falsely and groundlessly.
"You say that there are no reasonably available reverent Novus Ordo Masses in your area or diocese and, in saying that the NO is inferior to the Tridentine in every way, we are left to wonder just what would be an adequately reverent NO Mass in your offended opinion"
If you wish to entertain that sort of malice, on your head be it. Reverence is not an esoteric concept; there is a shared definition within our culture. I do not deviate from it.
"Why was the same archbishop"
Again, what was being done decades ago by one now-deceased archbishop is not a substantial argument against anything I've said.
"as self-appointed critics of His Church"
That is the core of your error. I have no intent of criticising His Church. However, it is undeniable that bad men have found and continue to find their way into positions of power within the Church. Unless you intend to deny this, or to assert that the misconduct of such bad men may not be criticized, your accusation hasn't a leg to stand on.
"It is obvious that you are a verrrrrry vigorous defender of the schism"
No such thing is obvious, or even barely discernable, or true. I am engaging in debate, because this is the best way to arrive at the truth of most issues of this sort.
"Members of the Church who despise such acts of the Church's enemies are called rational."
Only if they *are* rational. Only if they don't let their hatred consume their rationality.
"Do you deny that John Paul the Great placed a higher priority on the rights of immigration than on arbitrarily drawn borders???? Or that the American bishops are likewise pro-immigration, legal or not????"
Has the Holy Father spoken ex cathedra on that issue? If not, I'll reserve my right to disagree.
"that is another "taste" question in which there is resistance almighty to change that is already sealed."
Sorry, national sovereignty is far more important than mere "taste," and the matter is far from sealed.
"Is "precessed" another senior moment? What does "precessed" mean?"
Precession is a wobbling motion that occurs when a spinning object is subjected to an external force. It is used in the field of gyrocompasses.
The rest of your note seems to consist entirely of personal remarks, and I don't care to trade discourtesies with you.
The late Mayor Richard Daley (Daley the compoetent if liberal) came under fire for ordering the Chicago Police Department to shoot to kill arsonists and shoot to maim burglarizing thieves during the post-MLK assassination festivities (urban riots) in Chicago. Part of his response was to say: "I have been vilified. I have been crucified. I have EVEN been criticized." Nonetheless, he was too sensible to be a SSPX schizzie and died when their schism was an informal one.
My apologies to Daley admirers for using the late great Hizzoner da Mare in comparison with brain dead pipsqueaks like SSPX leaders and adherents and sympathizers.
"Schism is sin. I hate sin. Don't you????"
I try not to let anything drive me mad with hatred.
Hillary's pals are always saying that sort of thing in suggesting that they do not hate Dubya but that pro-American Americans hate Hillary and Company irrationally. They are not very convincing and neither are the schizzies and/or their excommunicated leaders. Nice try. No cigar.
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