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To: kosta50; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Kitty Mittens; Mad Dawg
Thank you for your reply!

But St. Paul chose to quote from the Septuagint OT which uses the Greek word nous (mind, intellect), and not the Hebrew OT, which uses the word ruach (spirit). He could have used the latter if he wanted to leave the Greeks with the impression that he was speaking of the indwelling Spirit. But he didn't.

Again, I must beg your pardon both on the terms and Paul’s use of them.

Paul was not taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ by flesh and blood, it was revealed to him.

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. - Galatians 1:11-20

Justin Martyr testified to the astonishing difference between wisdom he gained by diligent learning v. revelations.

And I too, having experienced nearly a half century of the indwelling Spirit – also testify to the piercing difference between understanding gained by revelation v reasoning v sensory perception, e.g. listening to the counsel of men.

Scriptures are the best example. I used to pour over them with lexicons, maps, commentaries and the whole nine yards. They were text on paper to me, like any other ancient manuscript - until I finally learned to yield to the Spirit at which time they came alive within me. Since then, as my eyes casually scan over the words, truths appear within me. Not all Truth of course, but what I need to know – moment by moment.

So on personal experience, I assure you that Paul is speaking of the mind of Christ as revealed by the indwelling Spirit in I Corinthians 2. Here is the passage, emphasis mine:

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – I Cor 2:6-16

With the opinions you have expressed against Paul, I doubt I will be able to convince you to the contrary, dear kosta50.

Nevertheless, for the Lurkers I will attempt to show that the Hebrew word concepts of soul/spirit at four levels do not translate one-to-one with the Greek word concepts at two levels and illustrate how Paul conveyed spiritual understanding from holy Hebrew word concepts to Greek word concepts.

First on the importance of the Hebrew language. Before Christ’s appearing to him on the Road to Damascus, Paul’s teacher was none other than Gamaliel who not only was a prominent member of the Sanhedrin but was also the grandson of Hillel. It is no coincidence that Gamaliel was specifically cited for this prophesy in Acts 5:34-39:

Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men….

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. – Acts 5:34-39

Some of Gamaliel’s thoughts are also captured in the Talmud. And like the other members of the Sanhedrin, Gamaliel was extensively educated in matters of theology, math/science, and very important to this discussion, language:

Qualifications for a Jewish judge and the operation of the Sanhedrin.

The Sanhedrin was required to hear all testimony directly, and not through an interpreter. It is therefore preferable that its members be familiar with all the languages spoken by Jews around the world.

When a foreign language is used in testimony, the Sanhedrin must have at least two members who speak that language to examine the witnesses. There must also be a third member who understands the language. These three members then constitute a minor court (beit din) of three, who can report the testimony to the entire body. Once testimony has been accepted by a minor court, it is no longer considered second-hand testimony.

We know that Paul spoke Greek, but he also knew Hebrew which is particularly important to the Torah because it is understood (then and now) - by all the religious Jews that Hebrew is the holy language because that is the language God spoke the Torah to Moses, and the Jewish tradition is that the Torah existed before the world:

The Conversion of Texts: Good for the Jews?

For Frisch, therein lies the weakness. He asserts that the only real way to ensure eternal viability is through preserving the original language of the Jewish people: Hebrew. Translations should be no more than tools to aide in the acquisition of language skills.

"Since the history of sacred literature, if something was not in lashon kodesh ["holy tongue"], it didn't survive," he explains. "Hebrew is the one language that takes any text and transcends it into eternity."

It's a framework that Rabbi Yoel D. Zeffren, the assistant dean of the Community Kollel of Philadelphia in Bala Cynwyd, says he operates under whenever he teaches.

"There's been a virtual explosion of opportunities and demand for opportunities - a tremendous increase in learning," locally and nationally, he says. The trick is to guide the student through a sea of English material.

"The beauty of the Torah opens up when you deal with interpreting using your own unique set of tools and experiences," he adds. "For the most part, that is locked when you don't have the ability to study on your own, when instead you're led along by the interpretations of those who translated before you, when you're reading it in a language other than the original text."

Sanhedrin 21b

Mar Zutra or, as some say, Mar 'Ukba said: Originally the Torah was given to Israel in Hebrew characters and in the sacred [Hebrew] language; later, in the times of Ezra, the Torah was given in Ashshurith script and Aramaic language. [Finally], they selected for Israel the Ashshurith script and Hebrew language, leaving the Hebrew characters and Aramaic language for the hedyototh. Who are meant by the 'hedyototh'? — R. Hisda answers: The Cutheans. And what is meant by Hebrew characters? — R. Hisda said: The libuna'ah script.

I assert that having the language skills he learned at Gamaliel's feet, Paul’s understanding of spiritual Truth which he received from the Holy Spirit, was in holy Hebrew word concepts which he carefully translated when he was speaking in Greek.

In Hebrew:

1. nephesh – the will to live, the animal soul, or the soul of all living things (Genesis 1:20) which by Jewish tradition returns to the “earth” after death. In Romans 8, Paul speaks of this as a whole, the creation longing for the children of God to be revealed. This is the natural man, the carnal man Paul describes in Romans 8.

2. ruach - the self-will or free will peculiar to man (abstraction, anticipation, intention, etc.) – by Jewish tradition, the pivot wherein a man decides to be Godly minded or earthy minded. Paul explains this concept in detail in Romans 8, we are responsible for choosing to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit rather than the urgings of the natural man.

3. neshama - the breath of God given to Adam (Genesis 2:7) which may also be seen as the “ears to hear” (John 10) - a sense of belonging beyond space/time, a predisposition to seek God and seek answers to the deep questions such as “what is the meaning of life?"

4. ruach Elohim - the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2) which indwells Christians (I Cor 2, John 3) – the presently existing in the “beyond” while still in the flesh. (Col 3:3) This is the life in passage : "In him was life, and the life was the light of men..." (John 1)

In Greek:

1. nous - reason/knowledge, the rational part of the soul.

2. pneuma - soul or spirit.

Romans 8 was a magnificent translation of these concepts to Greek, which we can see in English here:

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded ( sarx phronema) [is] death; but to be spiritually minded (pneuma phronema) [is] life and peace.

Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God (pneuma theos) dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ (pneuma Christos), he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

If Paul were speaking of the soul of a non-Christian man (nephesh, ruach, neshama without ruach Elohim) - he would not have added the words kurios and Christos to nous in I Cor 2:16. The indwelling of ruach Elohim is what makes a Christian. (John 3, Romans 8:9, John 1)

Indeed, in I Cor 2:6 he makes it very clear that mental reasoning (sophia which translates to wisdom) of mortal man will not lead to spiritual understanding. He goes on to say that the spiritual man, the reborn Christian man, speaks in a spiritual language that the natural man cannot understand because he does not have the indwelling Spirit. That is the heart of I Cor 2, not mortal reasoning but spiritual understanding.

When we take all of Paul’s writings in context with Scripture from Torah to Revelation – we see that Romans 8 and I Corinthians 2 are speaking to same Spiritual Truths as John’s Gospel, esp chapters 1,3,16-17.

934 posted on 03/17/2007 11:09:17 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; airborne; American in Israel; AnimalLover; auggy; backhoe; backslacker; Baraonda; ...
Shameless pers END TIMES PING LIST ping for prayer, if not interest.

Dear Heart Precious Angel-Gal,

On just arising and reading this post first, I'm so blessed and thrilled in my spirit as to be moved to tears. PRAISE GOD! Your words are so true and such a blessing this Lord's Day Morning. [tears] I tried to sleep longer but kept feeling an urge to get up and come check this thread. Soooo blessed that I did. Words cannot express my thanks sufficiently. The following parts were particularly blessed to me.

Paul was not taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ by flesh and blood, it was revealed to him.

Justin Martyr testified to the astonishing difference between wisdom he gained by diligent learning v. revelations.

And I too, having experienced nearly a half century of the indwelling Spirit – also testify to the piercing difference between understanding gained by revelation v reasoning v sensory perception, e.g. listening to the counsel of men.

Scriptures are the best example. I used to pour over them with lexicons, maps, commentaries and the whole nine yards. They were text on paper to me, like any other ancient manuscript - until I finally learned to yield to the Spirit at which time they came alive within me. Since then, as my eyes casually scan over the words, truths appear within me. Not all Truth of course, but what I need to know – moment by moment.

So on personal experience, I assure you that Paul is speaking of the mind of Christ as revealed by the indwelling Spirit in I Corinthians 2.

Nevertheless, for the Lurkers I will attempt to show that the Hebrew word concepts of soul/spirit at four levels do not translate one-to-one with the Greek word concepts at two levels and illustrate how Paul conveyed spiritual understanding from holy Hebrew word concepts to Greek word concepts.

First on the importance of the Hebrew language. Before Christ’s appearing to him on the Road to Damascus, Paul’s teacher was none other than Gamaliel who not only was a prominent member of the Sanhedrin but was also the grandson of Hillel. It is no coincidence that Gamaliel was specifically cited for this prophesy in Acts 5:34-39:

When a foreign language is used in testimony, the Sanhedrin must have at least two members who speak that language to examine the witnesses. There must also be a third member who understands the language. These three members then constitute a minor court (beit din) of three, who can report the testimony to the entire body. Once testimony has been accepted by a minor court, it is no longer considered second-hand testimony.

I assert that having the language skills he learned at Gamaliel's feet, Paul’s understanding of spiritual Truth which he received from the Holy Spirit, was in holy Hebrew word concepts which he carefully translated when he was speaking in Greek.

# # # # # # # # # ##

I again had the NT on MP3 player playing all night as I slept, awoke, prayed, slept etc. And just prior to arising had been particularly blessed by Col 2—here in the Message version [emphasis Qx’s]:

Colossians 2

2-4I want you woven into a tapestry of love, in touch with everything there is to know of God. Then you will have minds confident and at rest, focused on Christ, God's great mystery. All the richest treasures of wisdom and knowledge are embedded in that mystery and nowhere else. And we've been shown the mystery! I'm telling you this because I don't want anyone leading you off on some wild-goose chase, after other so-called mysteries, or "the Secret."

5I'm a long way off, true, and you may never lay eyes on me, but believe me, I'm on your side, right beside you. I am delighted to hear of the careful and orderly ways you conduct your affairs, and impressed with the solid substance of your faith in Christ.

From the Shadows to the Substance

6-7My counsel for you is simple and straightforward: Just go ahead with what you've been given. You received Christ Jesus, the Master; now live him. You're deeply rooted in him. You're well constructed upon him. You know your way around the faith. Now do what you've been taught. School's out; quit studying the subject and start living it! And let your living spill over into thanksgiving.

8-10Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him. When you come to him, that fullness comes together for you, too. His power extends over everything.

11-15Entering into this fullness is not something you figure out or achieve. It's not a matter of being circumcised or keeping a long list of laws. No, you're already in—insiders—not through some secretive initiation rite but rather through what Christ has already gone through for you, destroying the power of sin. If it's an initiation ritual you're after, you've already been through it by submitting to baptism. Going under the water was a burial of your old life; coming up out of it was a resurrection, God raising you from the dead as he did Christ. When you were stuck in your old sin-dead life, you were incapable of responding to God. God brought you alive—right along with Christ! Think of it! All sins forgiven, the slate wiped clean, that old arrest warrant canceled and nailed to Christ's cross. He stripped all the spiritual tyrants in the universe of their sham authority at the Cross and marched them naked through the streets.

16-17So don't put up with anyone pressuring you in details of diet, worship services, or holy days. All those things are mere shadows cast before what was to come; the substance is Christ.

18-19Don't tolerate people who try to run your life, ordering you to bow and scrape, insisting that you join their obsession with angels and that you seek out visions. They're a lot of hot air, that's all they are. They're completely out of touch with the source of life, Christ, who puts us together in one piece, whose very breath and blood flow through us. He is the Head and we are the body. We can grow up healthy in God only as he nourishes us.

20-23So, then, if with Christ you've put all that pretentious and infantile religion behind you, why do you let yourselves be bullied by it? "Don't touch this! Don't taste that! Don't go near this!" Do you think things that are here today and gone tomorrow are worth that kind of attention? Such things sound impressive if said in a deep enough voice. They even give the illusion of being pious and humble and ascetic. But they're just another way of showing off, making yourselves look important.

. . . . HMMMM . . . making yourselves look important . . . probably because earthly daddies didn’t cause them to feel important enough the first 8 years of life. Dreadfully sad how satan takes such hideous advantage of such histories and bludgeons them about the head and shoulders relentlessly with dry husk chaff RELIGION as though it were the truly truest truly true truest truth vs those idiots over THERE who don’t know enough to adhere to OUR !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! of men; doctrines of men; traditions of demons; doctrines of demons. Sigh.

AND, It’s not ‘merely’ that such things occur with us human critters. We’ve most all been there at some time or other in our Christian walk. It’s that our insecurities and blinding pride can foster such a cold steely DEATH GRIP on such deadly constructions on reality.

Mercifully, clarity and freedom from such are afforded when we forsake the idolatry of our own constructions on reality and seek GOD ALONE FIRST, FOREMOST & ALWAYS.

938 posted on 03/18/2007 8:13:05 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY, HIM & HIS KINGDOM 1ST)
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To: Alamo-Girl
"And I too, having experienced nearly a half century of the indwelling Spirit – also testify to the piercing difference between understanding gained by revelation v reasoning v sensory perception, e.g. listening to the counsel of men. ..."

Some have described this discernment by stating we have three systems of perception. The body has five sense of perception used in empiricism; the soul has a sense of perception used in rationalism; and when we have a reborn spirit, we have another system of perception, namely faith. Hence the phrase, faith as a system of perception.

939 posted on 03/18/2007 9:01:42 AM PDT by Cvengr
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To: Alamo-Girl

I really enjoyed reading this post. Thank you.


945 posted on 03/18/2007 9:40:53 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Alamo-Girl
Justin Martyr testified to the astonishing difference between wisdom he gained by diligent learning v. revelations.

What a breathtaking, magnificent essay/post, dear Alamo-Girl! Excellent argument RE: Paul's use of terminology, BTW. Thank you so very much! Bookmarked!

954 posted on 03/18/2007 10:19:50 AM PDT by betty boop (The aspiration to truth is more precious than its assured possession. -- G. E. Lessing)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Good post AG,..If I might add a few other perspectives which touch upon these words.

Explicit word study on
Soul-- Psuche
Spirit-- Pneuma
heart--Kardia
Wisdom-- Sophia

I've seen some other rigorous studies which also closely approximate these meanings, but both have some other Scriptures which by counterexample indicate the model isn;t quite there.

One such model, which is fairly accurate was studied by Bob Thieme Jr, from a dispensational background ala Chafer.

His model was named 'Operation Z', sometimes also implied by what he called GAP for 'Grace Apparatus Perception'.

In Operation Z, he describes flow of knowledge from God through the output of man. The first step beginning at the upper left hand corner of the letter Z, proceeding to the right, down left diagonally to the bottom of Z then right to the end of the letter as a graph of the process.

The first node being the Pastor-Teacher who processes the first stage of delivering the Word or God (a spiritual element is involved here involving supernatural revelation via the spirit of the pastor-teacher in his illumination by the Holy Spirit of the interpretation of the original author's inspiration, again all by particular ministries of the Holy Spirit.

This information then flows into the believer's spirit (PNEUMA) when accompanied by positive volition to learn and taught to the human spirit as PNEUMATIKOS. This second stage requires the individual believer to be in fellowship with the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit to minister in perfect holiness.

The third stage is again a ministry of the Holy Spirit who takes the LOGOS made known to the human spirit and turns it into knowledge in the mind, as GNOSIS or a rational knowledge. That knowledge, must also be accompanied by faith and a humble spirit willing to be taught. The Holy Spirit ministers in this process also, both in the faith being delivered and being received by the believer, also in the believer's volition to learn through faith.

The fourth stage is performed by the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the individual believer, again who is remaining in fellowship with the Holy Spirit by being filled with the Holy Spirit. This ministry by the Holy Spirit turns the GNOSIS from the stage 3 in the mind, into EPIGNOSIS or an outward knowledge, in the heart (KARDIA) of the believer.



The GNOSIS in the mind is insufficient as a tool for the believer to apply to problems in life. Our toolbox of problem solving devices is composed of those things we have in our heart. Our heart is scarred from previous carnal(SARX, flesh) or worldly(COSMOS, making order out of disorder(CHAOS)) living, but upon our learning Bible doctrine, the faith of God is transferred through this process into our hearts to provide us with new tools we may aply in any situation through faith in Christ to walk by His will.

When we then are placed into testing situations, we may continue to walk through faith in Him, by applying those tools in our heart which He has provided in us. In this fashion we may perform good works by His standards.

Our remaining in fellowship with Him, applying His faith which is matured as Bible doctrine circulating in our soul, our thinking processes, and with positive volition to Him, applying that doctrine to life, results in wisdom (SOPHIA). The wisdom comes from the heart coupled with volition.

This is why the wisdom of the carnally minded is foolish, while the wisdom of those who do not exalt themselves is made high.

It is noteworthy to consider every meaning of the word 'faith', be it saving faith, reliance in that which is trustworthy, as well as doctrine circulating in the soul, all comes from God.


So in a nutshell, Operation Z helps us to memorize a simple model of how God the Holy Spirit always is involved in our consitnuing sanctification process.


Note the soul has two compartments, a Mind(NOUS) and the heart (KARDIA). Man isn't defiled by what goes into him, but by what proceeds out from him. This is why it is so important for us always to pray prior to Bible study, first by turning our thinking back to God through faith in Christ (Repenting with volition) and then naming our known and unknown sins to Him, placing them in His hands and by 1stJohn 1:9 we are assured He is faithful and just to forgive us those sins and is free then to continue in His sanctification of us, again by and through faith in our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, and again as all faith is provided by Him.


With the above model of Operation Z stated, I have found some other amplifying passages which further highlight the work within the spirit and or soul in the processes, but the model nicely accounts for many of the processes explained in the epistles. Galatians is probably one of the best teachings on this topic as are Peter's letters and Ephesians and Colossians.

Note that the Greek discerns between PNUMA and PSYCHE and PSUCHE.

Scriptural documentation for the above might be discerned from the following notes:

1 Cor 2:4-16. (See Ephesians lesson 993 (Bob Thieme.)
1. 2:4, "Both my doctrine and my preaching were not in the persuasive words of wisdom [Plato (rationalist) & Socrates (empiricist) methods] but in a demonstration of the Spirit and His omnipotence."
2. 2:5, "that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man [based on human I.Q.] but in the power of God."
3. 2:6, "Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature [winners], a wisdom however not of this age nor of the leaders of this world who are fading out."
4. 2:7, "But we communicate wisdom from God in a mystery, which has been concealed,which God predesigned before the ages for our glory"
5. 2:8, "[the wisdom] which none of the rulers of this world have understood, for if they had understood [but they didn't], they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory [a title for Christ as the Shekinah glory]."
6. 2:9, "But as it stands written [Isa 64:4, Isa 65:17], `Things which the eye has not seen and the ear has not heard [empiricism]' and [Bible doctrine which] has not entered into the right lobe of mankind [rationalism], what things God has prepared for those who love Him.'"
7. 2:10,"But to us God has revealed them through the Spirit; for the[human]spirit investigates all things, even the deep things of God."
8. 2:11, "For who among mankind understands the things of mankind except the life[soul-perception, human spirit] which is in him? Even so the things of God no one has known, except the Spirit of God."
9. 2:12, "Now we have not received the world's frame of reference [the human I.Q. for perception], but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been graciously given to us by God."
10. 2:13, "Which things we also communicate, by teaching doctrine not from the source of man's wisdom, but by the teaching of the Spirit, explaining spiritual truth to a spiritual apparatus."
11. 2:14, "But the soulish man does not receive [accept] spiritual phenomena from the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness; furthermore, he is not able to understand [spiritual phenomena] because it is [spiritually] discerned in a manner caused by the filling of the Spirit."
12. 2:15, "But the spiritual man discerns all things, but he himself is discerned by no one. [Your real spiritual status quo is known only by you and the Lord; you are not subject to investigation by other believers; privacy of the priesthood.]"
13. 2:16, [Isa 40:13] "For `who has known the thinking of the Lord that he should instruct Him?' But we have the thinking of Christ [Bible doctrine]."


955 posted on 03/18/2007 10:25:15 AM PDT by Cvengr
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To: Alamo-Girl; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Kitty Mittens
Thank you for your exhaustive post.

Paul was not taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ by flesh and blood, it was revealed to him.

Herein lies the first problem. The Hebrew God does not "download" the Gospel but teaches it by spoken word. As Jarsolav Pelikan says in his famous book Whose Bible Is It, the OT says that God spoke to Moses and gave him the Law, word by word [The Koran makes the same "authoritative" claim with Allah dictating to Mohammad].

Throughout the Old Testament, the Lord speaks to the Prophets, gradually revealing Himself. Christ patiently teaches His disciples, in spoken words, the Good News. It is only with Paul, that God reveals everything to him in an instant, using an uncharacteristic "shortcut."

What he is implying is an esoteric experience, the 'privilege' of the select few (in his case the only one), of direct participation with the divine, receiving 'privileged information' en toto — an undeniably Gnostic belief.

You then quote Paul's second undeniably Gnostic statement: "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen..."

The claim of the indwelling God in us, even before we believe (Paul is implying that Christ was in him, but was hidden), who is revealed to us by this mystical esoteric, yet certain knowledge (gnosis) is not only the basis of Gnosticism, but sufficient cause for salvation.

I think it is obvious that this is precisely what Paul taught: saved by faith (which comes from esoteric knowledge given to the (s)elect by God in an instant) alone.

So, when you say ", I doubt I will be able to convince you to the contrary, dear kosta50" I must concur, and ad emphatically "With the opinions you have expressed regarding Paul — likewise, dear Albion Girl," as I have not even began to scratch the surface of the reasons, nor would the bandwidth allow it. It's not personal, trust me.

One thing is clear: Paul is unlike any other Apostle, and his teaching is quite distinct from what is taught in the Gospels. There is also a possibility that he may have suffered from epilepsy (Gal 4:13-14]

Perhaps you did not notice that in Acts 9:7 Paul's companion(s) heard a sound but saw no one; yet in Act 22:9 his companions saw the light but heard nothing.

In II Cor 12:24, Paul speaks of a man of faith in Christ who was taken to "the third heaven" and "heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter." [BTW, Muhammad narrates a similar experience]

Interestingly he also tells us that Christ in flesh is not to be remembered:

What does that make of the Gospels?!

Appealing to the 'indwelling Spirit' or gnosis, or hidden knowledge, or faith, is a subjective statement which may seem "objective" to you, and you alone and as such cannot be used as a 'material' for rational argumnet.

So, when you tell me that "Justin Martyr testified to the astonishing difference between wisdom he gained by diligent learning v. revelations" there is nothing one can say to that because it is as if I say "I have a heartburn." You can either believe it or not. But it ends any discussion.

And so, when the argument is reduced to "And I too, having experienced nearly a half century of the indwelling Spirit – also testify to the piercing difference between understanding gained by revelation v reasoning v sensory perception, e.g. listening to the counsel of men" I can shrug my shoulders and say "Okay." I can't "see" if you have a toothache. Such experiences are not conducive to conversation, let alone serious discussion.

Then you continue "So on personal experience, I assure you that Paul is speaking of the mind of Christ as revealed by the indwelling Spirit in I Corinthians 2."

Okay. Thank you for sharing that.

Let me just say that the Jews and Muslims believe with equal fervor and find their "inner experience" just as convincing as you and all of us do. They will tell you that their knowledge is as certain as you claim yours.

The LDS fervently defend their Book of Mormon, absolutely convinced that we and the Jews and the Muslims are "sadly mistaken." They all 'know' this through esoteric inner 'knowledge' that cannot be uttered in words.

If I use the Quix trix, we all notice that the color changed from 'black' to 'red' but we have no way of knowing how you actually see/perceive/experience the color we all commonly call red compared to the rest of us, any more than we can 'read' what the other person is thinking in his or her head, or whether someone has a muscle ache.

My point is: discuss with facts! We can discuss using tangibles but not with esoteric experiences. Unless, of course, our purpose is not to have a discussion but a group hug, everyone patting each other on the back.

992 posted on 03/18/2007 8:22:51 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Quix
The Hebrew Letters

NUN
The Messiah: Heir to the Throne

In Aramaic, nun means "fish." The mem, the waters of the sea, is the natural medium of the nun, fish. The nun "swims" in the mem, covered by the waters of the "hidden world." Creatures of the "hidden world" lack self-consciousness. Unlike fish, land animals, revealed on the face of the earth, possess self-consciousness.

The souls of Israel divide into two general categories, symbolized by fish and land animals. The two prototypes of these categories are the leviathan and the behemot. In the present, these two categories of souls correspond to the two innate tendencies and attractions of the soul, to either the concealed and secret or revealed and legal dimensions of Torah. In the future, the two prototypes, leviathan and behemot, will unite in battle, each "killing" the "ego" of the other, thereafter to blend together in true union. Their "meat" will then be served as the feast for the tzadikim in the World to Come. The souls of the tzadikim will actually consume the very root of consciousness of our present level of soul, in order to integrate ("digest") it into a totally new and higher level of consciousness.

"Leviathan" equals in gematria malchut, ("kingdom," 496). In Kabbalah, malchut, in the world of Divine Emanation, is represented by the sea, whose tides are controlled by the power of the moon, the symbol of King David (upon seeing the new moon we say, "David the king of Israel is alive forever"). When malchut descends to enliven the lower worlds it is symbolized by the earth. Thus, the leviathan is the symbol of the Divine Source of "kingdom." In Hebrew, nun means "kingdom," and in particular, the "heir to the throne."

The "nun" is the fourteenth letter of the alef-beit, which equals "David," the progenitor of the eternal Kingdom of Israel. The heir to David is Mashiach ben David, of whom is said: "As long as the duration of the sun his name shall rule." Our Sages teach us that one of the names of Mashiach is Yinon ("shall rule"), cognate to nun. Mashiach is also referred to as "the miscarriage," or, literally, the "fallen one." As we will learn in the secret of the letter samech, the nun does not appear in Psalm 145, but is supported by God's transcendent mercy, as expressed by the following letter, samech. In general, nun corresponds in Torah to the image of falling. The soul of Mashiach experiences itself as continuously falling and dying; if not for the ever-present Hand of God "catching" it, it would crash to the ground and shatter to death. The consciousness of fall is the reflection of the egoless state of the fish, in its natural medium of water, when forced to reveal itself on dry land. This is like the experience of a hidden tzadik when forced from Above to reveal himself for the good of Israel and the world. We find this exemplified in the life and teachings of the Ba'al Shem Tov, and so will be epitomized in the life of Mashiach. Ultimately, the "destiny" of Mashiach and his generation is to assume the level of sea on earth, to experience, paradoxically, selfless-self-consciousness, as said in the verse of Isaiah with which Maimonides concludes his Code of Jewish Law (whose final section, "The Laws of Kings," culminates with the description of the coming of Mashiach): "for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God, like waters cover the sea."

In the present, these two categories of souls correspond to the two innate tendencies and attractions of the soul, to either the concealed and secret or revealed and legal dimensions of Torah.

http://www.inner.org/hebleter/nun.htm

Also: PaRDeS

• Peshat = Literal meaning; the contextual, philological level
• Remez = Allegorical meaning; cross-reference to other texts; rational or philosophical level
• Derash = Moral or homiletic meaning; aggadic level; midrashic [= interpretation via derash] level
• Sod = Mystical or anagogic meaning

The initial letters of these four words form the acronym 'PaRDeS' = garden or walled garden or through the wonders of transliterative translation, Paradise. The wall around the garden is what kabbalists have referred to as the 'malbush' or 'garments' of the text, almost always in reference to the Torah.

http://www.kheper.net/topics/hermeneutics/PaRDeS-1.htm

***

The four gospels are written with this code, Mark – Peshat, Luke – Remez, Matthew – Derash and John – Sod. Ah! The sod level!

Have fun!

M

1,043 posted on 03/19/2007 9:30:56 AM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (Saturn is in Leo)
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