Participation - yes, but running the show - no. I think that pissant just happened to (quite unintentionally) push all my buttons on this topic. :) You know that I always bristle when the FIRST credit is given to man, and that is the way I read pissant's post. In this light, Psalm 8 is an excellent example of what I mean:
Ps 8 1 ... O Lord, our Lord,how majestic is your name ...... You have set ...... 2 ... you have ordained praise ... 3 ... the work of your fingers, ...... which you have set in place, 4 what is man that you are mindful of him, ...... you care for him? 5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: ...... 9 O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!
Yes, God ordained that men rule over the lands and His other creatures, just as He ordained that I "rule" in my household. But none of this is absolute, since God owns everything. All is subject to God's ultimate will. I just think the focus should always be on where any (lent) power or authority comes from. To me, the focus of Psalm 8 is clearly and correctly on God, not man.
Whatever "dark" view of humans I have is an acknowledgment of my dependence on God. For without God, men are indeed "dark". They seek the darkness and will never come to the light on their own. That's why I'm so obsessive about where all the "credit" should go. :)
We've discussed this ad nauseum, so I don't think I will detail that we do not forget that God is behind the actions of man. Any saint will realize that - that they are humble and can do nothing of good without God (cf John 15). And while some may "give may first give credit" to man, I think people don't really mean that man is above God or that man can do nothing without God.
just think the focus should always be on where any (lent) power or authority comes from. To me, the focus of Psalm 8 is clearly and correctly on God, not man. There is nothing wrong with realizing the dignity of man. We don't have to be "worms" in our own eyes to realize that we need God, that we are wounded creatures. I think some people overexaggerate EITHER side. One can treat man as God's puppet, others treat man as if we rule our own destiny. As usual, the truth is a balance between the two. The Scriptures make a nice balance between the two concepts - and so should we.
Brother in Christ
Participation - yes, but running the show - no. I think that pissant just happened to (quite unintentionally) push all my buttons on this topic. :) You know that I always bristle when the FIRST credit is given to man, and that is the way I read pissant's post. In this light, Psalm 8 is an excellent example of what I mean:
We've discussed this ad nauseum, so I don't think I will detail that we do not forget that God is behind the actions of man. Any saint will realize that - that they are humble and can do nothing of good without God (cf John 15). And while some may "give may first give credit" to man, I think people don't really mean that man is above God or that man can do nothing without God.
just think the focus should always be on where any (lent) power or authority comes from. To me, the focus of Psalm 8 is clearly and correctly on God, not man.
There is nothing wrong with realizing the dignity of man. We don't have to be "worms" in our own eyes to realize that we need God, that we are wounded creatures. I think some people overexaggerate EITHER side. One can treat man as God's puppet, others treat man as if we rule our own destiny. As usual, the truth is a balance between the two. The Scriptures make a nice balance between the two concepts - and so should we.
Brother in Christ