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To: kosta50; annalex; kawaii; Kolokotronis
The people who will go to heaven are those who, based on their deeds, will be judged acceptable to God and restored to their pre-Fall state. The conditional "if you do these things..." is clear. God wants our honest cooperation with His will, even if we are capable of cooperating only imperfectly.

This is flat-out a text book definition of a works-based salvation. Salvation is based on Judgment and Judgment is based on works. I mean, I think that most other Christians would spot you that you believe God has to be involved, so I don't understand all the fuss about rejecting that description.

We must forgive in order to be forgiven. "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." [Mat 6:14] and "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions" [Mat 6:15]. Notice the conditional statements by our Lord.

Well, sure, but this isn't meant to be taken to the strictest meaning. No one could pass this test. This is meant to show the correct direction. The true believer will, in general, have a forgiving heart. But we don't build up "forgiveness points" or any other kind of points. Or do we?

The Gospels clearly teach that Grace is not unconditionally granted, but only unconditionally offered.

So, then grace must be earned. This matches a works-based salvation. We believe in a free grace given through God's sovereign will.

1,088 posted on 03/23/2007 11:29:37 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; kawaii; Kolokotronis
works-based salvation

The distinction that is important here is, Who made the works salvific in the first place. A pelagian (or some other deistic moralist) would say that the works are independent of grace. But we say that the works are salvific because of the sacrifice of Christ and the grace that outpours.

1,089 posted on 03/23/2007 11:58:26 AM PDT by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; kawaii; Kolokotronis
This is flat-out a text book definition of a works-based salvation. Salvation is based on Judgment and Judgment is based on works

The Bible is clear: everyone will be judged based on their deeds, not beliefs. Which part don't you understand or are not willing to accept?

Kosta: "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions" [Mat 6:15]

FK: Well, sure, but this isn't meant to be taken to the strictest meaning.

Where does it say that? The Bible is clear. Which part don't you understand or refuse to accept?

Kosta: The Gospels clearly teach that Grace is not unconditionally granted, but only unconditionally offered

FK: So, then grace must be earned. This matches a works-based salvation. We believe in a free grace given through God's sovereign will

The Bible is clear: God offers grace (pardon) to all. What we do with it is how we will be judged. God says "IF you do this, then you can count on Me." There is always the "If" and "Then" conditional clause.

There is onyl a universal offer. There is no 'granting' anything in advance. If you fulfill your part, God will fulfill His. If not, he won't either. That's His promise. Which part don't you understand or refuse to accept?

1,090 posted on 03/23/2007 2:42:58 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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