Posted on 03/07/2007 9:10:18 AM PST by Salvation
I feared you would take that as an - well not a rebuke but -- a sort of targetted admonition.
QX: Hey, Bro, happy to take your pontifications as targeted admonitions whenever they seem the least bit potentially fitting, fruitful and/or edifying--my choice--so there! LOL.
It really was just my observation. When one person says, "A" and another says,"If you can stand there and say 'A', obviously you are the kind of person who eats babies for tea," then something is amiss.
That's why I tried to back away from the conversation. My best guess is there's a fundamental failure to communicate" here.
QX: INDEED. That's been obvious for quite a long time! LOL.
But, I'm not so dense as to assume that I'm going to be so brilliant, clever, gracious, anointed or whatever to get through . . . granite . . . constructions on reality.
I CONTENT MYSELF with using such obtuse, grossly convoluted and grossly hypocritical notions as foils to write truth to the LURKERS. LONG LIVE THE LURKERS.
But I greatly appreciate your sharing whatever admonitions you wish my direction. I like to learn and grow and OVERCOME my flaws instead of embellish and flaunt them--contrary to vast public opinion.
LUB
So, your "Bible" [in quotes since so much seems to be missing from it] is missing the verses about: 1. God Almighty walking and talking with Adam in the garden? 2. God Almighty meeting face to face with Moses and conversing as friends? 3. God Almighty wanting to meet at the tent of meeting with anyone of the Israelites who wished to ask Him questions but they were to fearful to do so. 4. God's evident dialogues with David? 5. God's evident dialogues with Elijah and Elisha? 6. God's dialogues with Daniel? 7. God's evident dialogues with Ezekiel? 8. God's evident dialogue/wrestling with Jacob? 9. God's evident dialogues with Solomon? 10. God's evident dialogues with Samuel? 11. God's evident dialogues with St Paul in the desert? I realize you don't like Paul. But since ALMIGHTY GOD DOES, I'll definitely go with God's assessment instead of yours. 12. God's dialogues with John the Beloved? # # # # # # # # BTW, when ALMIGHTY, ALL KNOWING GOD ASKS A QUESTION, He's not seeking information. LOL. Methinks your construction on reality needs some adjustment.
Thank you for the ping Quix. I'm so glad I was able to read this. All of it was wonderful but I especially liked the following:
"They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ."
I really enjoyed reading this post. Thank you.
TO ME, there's SOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH dead drab horrid stuff in the world; so much black evil blackness; so much dreary gray; so much anemic, wimpy blah; . . .
I find the colors refreshingly like
1. a rainbow after the rain;
2. a dance at a graduation celebration [funeral];
3. a flower amidst asphalt;
. . .
4. a songbird after a dirge;
5. sunrays on the ocean after a hurricane;
. . .
6. a child's reaching up for a hold & a hug after a brutal workday;
7. a new puppy's happy tail so exhuberant the wagging back half of his body makes his hind feet unsteady;
. . .
8. raspberries amidst thorns;
9. rabbit fur, hot cider and a roaring fire after changing a tire at midnight in a blizzrd;
. . .
10. flying to see a long missed Loved one after a long parting.
But hey, if you prefer to have a construction on reality where colors foster color blindness--don't let me hinder your construction on reality. To each his own. . . . Unless God suggests otherwise.
For me, I'll continue to construe colors as WONDERFUL!
I realize mileage may vary and that scroll buttons work just fine, normally.
LOVE YOUR POST. THX.
I have spent many a long night meditating on how I know what I know and how sure I am that I know it.
Of a Truth, the only certain knowledge I possess is that which has been revealed to me by the Spirit. My own reasoning, my sensory perception and the counsel of men simply do not compare. They are not even in the same league.
In sum, a thing is True because God says it.
Of course all of this is foolishness to anyone who trusts his own mind, sensory perceptions or the counsel of men
But that is the question, isn’t it?
Who do you believe?
= = = =
THX. I THOROUGHLY AGREE.
Been there, done that tons.
That advanced English class 12th grade reading all those classics and having to answer: WHO ARE YOU? WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE AND WHERE ARE YOU GOING? Was sooooo wonderful for me.
And WHO DO YOU BELIEVE is utterly crucial. THE FULCRUM. THE "Y" in the road.
Assuming that one's rational mind is the Mother of all truths is sheer idiocy--at a quickly-arrived-at-point.
And if and when satan et al begin to make reality itself seem utterly convoluted and awash in contradictions as plentiful as dust . . .
HEARING GOD AND KNOWING GOD AND KNOWING HE ALONE IS TRUTH ALONG WITH HAVING THE WORD HIDDEN IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS--will be crucial.
Long ago one poster used a blue/green that was so light I couldn't read it easily and thus just scrolled past whatever (s)he had to say. But your colors contrast well against the background.
"what of bishops who have a wife/family in secret, what are the canonical ramifications?"
He got fired and moved to Portugal! :)
Quix, you really are an artist. It is wonderful to SEE the things you see, really see them. Not everyone does. I try to point those things out to my grandchildren. I want them to really SEE things too....Ping-Pong
What a breathtaking, magnificent essay/post, dear Alamo-Girl! Excellent argument RE: Paul's use of terminology, BTW. Thank you so very much! Bookmarked!
Good post AG,..If I might add a few other perspectives which touch upon these words.
Explicit word study on
Soul-- Psuche
Spirit-- Pneuma
heart--Kardia
Wisdom-- Sophia
I've seen some other rigorous studies which also closely approximate these meanings, but both have some other Scriptures which by counterexample indicate the model isn;t quite there.
One such model, which is fairly accurate was studied by Bob Thieme Jr, from a dispensational background ala Chafer.
His model was named 'Operation Z', sometimes also implied by what he called GAP for 'Grace Apparatus Perception'.
In Operation Z, he describes flow of knowledge from God through the output of man. The first step beginning at the upper left hand corner of the letter Z, proceeding to the right, down left diagonally to the bottom of Z then right to the end of the letter as a graph of the process.
The first node being the Pastor-Teacher who processes the first stage of delivering the Word or God (a spiritual element is involved here involving supernatural revelation via the spirit of the pastor-teacher in his illumination by the Holy Spirit of the interpretation of the original author's inspiration, again all by particular ministries of the Holy Spirit.
This information then flows into the believer's spirit (PNEUMA) when accompanied by positive volition to learn and taught to the human spirit as PNEUMATIKOS. This second stage requires the individual believer to be in fellowship with the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit to minister in perfect holiness.
The third stage is again a ministry of the Holy Spirit who takes the LOGOS made known to the human spirit and turns it into knowledge in the mind, as GNOSIS or a rational knowledge. That knowledge, must also be accompanied by faith and a humble spirit willing to be taught. The Holy Spirit ministers in this process also, both in the faith being delivered and being received by the believer, also in the believer's volition to learn through faith.
The fourth stage is performed by the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the individual believer, again who is remaining in fellowship with the Holy Spirit by being filled with the Holy Spirit. This ministry by the Holy Spirit turns the GNOSIS from the stage 3 in the mind, into EPIGNOSIS or an outward knowledge, in the heart (KARDIA) of the believer.
The GNOSIS in the mind is insufficient as a tool for the believer to apply to problems in life. Our toolbox of problem solving devices is composed of those things we have in our heart. Our heart is scarred from previous carnal(SARX, flesh) or worldly(COSMOS, making order out of disorder(CHAOS)) living, but upon our learning Bible doctrine, the faith of God is transferred through this process into our hearts to provide us with new tools we may aply in any situation through faith in Christ to walk by His will.
When we then are placed into testing situations, we may continue to walk through faith in Him, by applying those tools in our heart which He has provided in us. In this fashion we may perform good works by His standards.
Our remaining in fellowship with Him, applying His faith which is matured as Bible doctrine circulating in our soul, our thinking processes, and with positive volition to Him, applying that doctrine to life, results in wisdom (SOPHIA). The wisdom comes from the heart coupled with volition.
This is why the wisdom of the carnally minded is foolish, while the wisdom of those who do not exalt themselves is made high.
It is noteworthy to consider every meaning of the word 'faith', be it saving faith, reliance in that which is trustworthy, as well as doctrine circulating in the soul, all comes from God.
So in a nutshell, Operation Z helps us to memorize a simple model of how God the Holy Spirit always is involved in our consitnuing sanctification process.
Note the soul has two compartments, a Mind(NOUS) and the heart (KARDIA). Man isn't defiled by what goes into him, but by what proceeds out from him. This is why it is so important for us always to pray prior to Bible study, first by turning our thinking back to God through faith in Christ (Repenting with volition) and then naming our known and unknown sins to Him, placing them in His hands and by 1stJohn 1:9 we are assured He is faithful and just to forgive us those sins and is free then to continue in His sanctification of us, again by and through faith in our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, and again as all faith is provided by Him.
With the above model of Operation Z stated, I have found some other amplifying passages which further highlight the work within the spirit and or soul in the processes, but the model nicely accounts for many of the processes explained in the epistles. Galatians is probably one of the best teachings on this topic as are Peter's letters and Ephesians and Colossians.
Note that the Greek discerns between PNUMA and PSYCHE and PSUCHE.
Scriptural documentation for the above might be discerned from the following notes:
1 Cor 2:4-16. (See Ephesians lesson 993 (Bob Thieme.)
1. 2:4, "Both my doctrine and my preaching were not in the persuasive words of wisdom [Plato (rationalist) & Socrates (empiricist) methods] but in a demonstration of the Spirit and His omnipotence."
2. 2:5, "that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man [based on human I.Q.] but in the power of God."
3. 2:6, "Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature [winners], a wisdom however not of this age nor of the leaders of this world who are fading out."
4. 2:7, "But we communicate wisdom from God in a mystery, which has been concealed,which God predesigned before the ages for our glory"
5. 2:8, "[the wisdom] which none of the rulers of this world have understood, for if they had understood [but they didn't], they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory [a title for Christ as the Shekinah glory]."
6. 2:9, "But as it stands written [Isa 64:4, Isa 65:17], `Things which the eye has not seen and the ear has not heard [empiricism]' and [Bible doctrine which] has not entered into the right lobe of mankind [rationalism], what things God has prepared for those who love Him.'"
7. 2:10,"But to us God has revealed them through the Spirit; for the[human]spirit investigates all things, even the deep things of God."
8. 2:11, "For who among mankind understands the things of mankind except the life[soul-perception, human spirit] which is in him? Even so the things of God no one has known, except the Spirit of God."
9. 2:12, "Now we have not received the world's frame of reference [the human I.Q. for perception], but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been graciously given to us by God."
10. 2:13, "Which things we also communicate, by teaching doctrine not from the source of man's wisdom, but by the teaching of the Spirit, explaining spiritual truth to a spiritual apparatus."
11. 2:14, "But the soulish man does not receive [accept] spiritual phenomena from the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness; furthermore, he is not able to understand [spiritual phenomena] because it is [spiritually] discerned in a manner caused by the filling of the Spirit."
12. 2:15, "But the spiritual man discerns all things, but he himself is discerned by no one. [Your real spiritual status quo is known only by you and the Lord; you are not subject to investigation by other believers; privacy of the priesthood.]"
13. 2:16, [Isa 40:13] "For `who has known the thinking of the Lord that he should instruct Him?' But we have the thinking of Christ [Bible doctrine]."
IOW, it is absolutely a done deal, and you can take it to the bank. Praise God!
After Knee-Mail duties this morning I am reminded of this most basic of questions...
What do I know for sure, and do I merely think I know IT?..
I think I know some "things" but things judged by human eyes, ears, and other senses that can fool me.. not the least of which is "things" filtered trough a human brain..
Five blind zoologists inspecting a new creature might construct a strange creature in their minds from a not so strange one.. I've done similar things myself in my life experience.. Who hasn't?..
You know we(humans) "NEED" spiritual discernment.. for without it we operate in carnal delusion and maybe fleshly denial.. I say spiritual discernment because we can be prone to hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see.. and taste what we want to taste.. and feel what we want to feel.. And; many there be, that have developed the skills to provide those services to us..
Many, indeed, even require that people tell them what they want to hear.. to even put up with them.. They totally reject(in degrees) anything outside of what they want to hear.. or prefer to hear..
Spiritual discernment is not like that.. its even the opposite of that.. if driven by spiritual discernment then your own opinion means little.. Depending on the source of the Spirit..
But then, I am talking again about God and the Devil.. Funny how the subject of communication ultimately raises to talk of God and the Devil.. with humans being pawns in the gambits.. Humans must drive Satan nuts.. After all Satans work and effort and gambits.. mankind is so fickle and can turn on him(satan) in a New York minute.... over such silly reasons too..
What Satan overlooked and was not ready for from the beginning was.. spiritual discernment.. For there is discernment of evil(Devil) and discernment of good(God)..
Little wonder Jesus said "you MUST be spiritually Born Again".. maybe being born again is a spiritual cleansing, or house cleaning, or strengthening of discernment, or baptism of the spirit.. So then a different kind of communication can begin.. opening of a Knee-Mail account.. The only cost is humility.. and gratitude..
Your excellent posts reminded me of a few lines from Calvin's Commentary on Romans 11:34 as Calvin seeks to further understand Paul's use of the phrase "the mind of Christ." (Note also the word 'predestination' here simply means God's will and His plan for creation.) Calvin's comments regarding the Holy Spirit are remarkably similar to your thinking.
He (Paul) begins here to extend as it were his hand to restrain the audacity of men, lest they should clamor against God’s judgments, and this he does by stating two reasons: the first is, that all mortals are too blind to take a view of God’s predestination by their own understanding, and to reason on a thing unknown is presumptuous and absurd; the other is, that we can have no cause of complaint against God, since no mortal can boast that God is a debtor to him; but that, on the contrary, all are under obligations to him for his bounty. Within this limit then let every one remember to keep his own mind, lest he be carried beyond God’s oracles in investigating predestination, since we hear that man can distinguish nothing in this case, any more than a blind man in darkness. This caution, however, is not to be so applied as to weaken the certainty of faith, which proceeds not from the acumen of the human mind, but solely from the illumination of the Spirit; for Paul himself in another place, after having testified that all the mysteries of God far exceed the comprehension of our minds, immediately subjoins that the faithful understand the mind of the Lord, because they have not received the spirit of this world, but the Spirit which has been given them by God, by whom they are instructed as to his goodness, which otherwise would be incomprehensible to them. As then we cannot by our own faculties examine the secrets of God, so we are admitted into a certain and clear knowledge of them by the grace of the Holy Spirit: and if we ought to follow the guidance of the Spirit, where he leaves us, there we ought to stop and as it were to fix our standing. If any one will seek to know more than what God has revealed, he shall be overwhelmed with the immeasurable brightness of inaccessible light. But we must bear in mind the distinction, which I have before mentioned, between the secret counsel of God, and his will made known in Scripture; for though the whole doctrine of Scripture surpasses in its height the mind of man, yet an access to it is not closed against the faithful, who reverently and soberly follow the Spirit as their guide; but the case is different with regard to his hidden counsel, the depth and height of which cannot by any investigation be reached.34. Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Glorious essay/post, dear hosepipe! I'm on my knees in humility and gratitude, giving thanks to the Lord for His creation and for you....
Just beautifully said.... Thank you oh so very much!
Mee Too...
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