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To: OLD REGGIE
If you read any of the translations of St. Clements' Letter To The Corinthians you will note it is unsigned and makes no claim whatsoever to "Primacy".

Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, A.D.95: "The high priest has been given his own special services, the priests have been assigned their own place, and the Levites have their special ministrations enjoined on them. The layman is bound by the ordinances of the laity.

Ignatius of Antioch, A.D. 110, To the Ephesians: "Your REVEREND presbytery is tuned to the Bishop as strings to a lyre...Let us be careful not to resist the Bishop, that through our submission to the Bishop we may belong to God...We should regard the Bishop as the Lord Himself."

To the Magnesians: "I advise you to always act in godly concord with the Bishop, presiding as the counterpart of God, and the presbyters as the counterpart of the council of the Apostles...As the Lord did nothing without the Father, either by Himself or by means of the Apostles, so you must do nothing without the Bishop and the presbyters."

To the Trallians: "...respect the Bishop as the counterpart of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and the college of the Apostles: without those no church is recognized."

To the Smyrneans: "Let no one do anything that pertains to the church apart from the Bishop...it is not permitted to baptize or hold a love-feast independently of the Bishop. But whatever he approves, that is also well pleasing to God."

Tertullian, A.D. 200: "The supreme priest (that is the Bishop) has the right of conferring baptism: after him the presbyters and deacons, but only with the Bishop's authority. Otherwise the laity also have the right...how much more is the discipline of reverence and humility incumbent upon laymen (since it also befits their superiors)...It would be idle for us to suppose that what is forbidden to PRIESTS is allowed to the laity. The distinction between the order of clergy and the people has been established by the authority of the Church."

Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage A.D. 250: "If Christ Jesus our Lord and God is Himself the High Priest of God the Father, and first offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father, and commanded this to be done in remembrance of Himself, then assuredly the priest acts truly in Christ's place when he reproduces what Christ did, and he then offers a true and complete sacrifice to God the Father, if he begins to offer as he sees Christ Himself has offered.

And so we see how, little by little the Early Church Fathers took Christian churches from being a proliferation of little localized extended families, and made them instead into a worldwide hierarchical religious corporation. It is evident too how this first error made it inevitable that more errors would soon follow. This wrong teaching about the very nature of the leadership and government of the church gave Christian leaders, in the form of Priests and Bishops, such authority that whatever else they ended up teaching was accepted virtually automatically as being from the Lord. And this was the Apostasy of the Early Church......and it continues.

You are correct. During Clement's time there was no claim to primacy....but I would say we were getting real close by the time Cyprian came on the scene. By Nicea....it was a slam dunk!

2,040 posted on 03/20/2007 5:31:16 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618
And so we see how, little by little the Early Church Fathers took Christian churches from being a proliferation of little localized extended families, and made them instead into a worldwide hierarchical religious corporation. It is evident too how this first error made it inevitable that more errors would soon follow. This wrong teaching about the very nature of the leadership and government of the church gave Christian leaders, in the form of Priests and Bishops, such authority that whatever else they ended up teaching was accepted virtually automatically as being from the Lord. And this was the Apostasy of the Early Church......and it continues.

So what you're saying is that the Church of Christ within just a few years became corrupt and turned against its founding purpose? And that you have determined that, you have determined its extent, and you have determined the proper uses and doctrines? Are you claiming that Christ was incompetent in forming His Church? Are you further claiming that until Diego came around, all prior Christian beliefs were either corrupt or merely wrong? You must, since you claim that your interpretation of Scripture and therefore Christ's intent, is correct, even though presumably demonstrably different than anyone else's.

By the way, how have you determined all this, as opposed to all the millions of conflicting heresies that exist in the Christian world?

2,051 posted on 03/21/2007 3:58:16 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (When you believe in nothing, then everything is acceptable.)
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To: Diego1618

By what authority do you make these claims? Are you saying Jesus was lying when He said He would never leave the Church and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18)? Let me remind you of what Jesus said:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:16

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 15:26-27

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13

You are saying the Holy Spirit left the Church and it was led astray. You need to rethink your position since you are directly contradicting Holy Scripture!


2,063 posted on 03/21/2007 6:30:05 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (?Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there's always laughter and good red wine." Hilaire Belloc)
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To: Diego1618
You are correct. During Clement's time there was no claim to primacy....but I would say we were getting real close by the time Cyprian came on the scene. By Nicea....it was a slam dunk!

The Petrine theory holds that Peter’s successors are to decide doctrinal matters for the Church. Yet, at the Council of Nicaea in 325ad, records show that the Roman bishop, Sylvester I, did not attend and exercised no primacy when the date of Easter was set as a replacement for the biblical Passover, and when Sunday worship officially replaced the seventh-day Sabbath. The Council of Nicaea was called and presided over not by a Roman bishop, but by the Emperor Constantine. As emperor, Constantine held the title of Pontifex Maximus in the pagan Roman religion—a title that Roman bishop Leo I would adopt a century later when arguing for the Petrine primacy over all other bishops. In 451ad, however, the Council of Chalcedon rebuffed Leo, and decreed that the bishops of Rome and Constantinople had equal authority. By 1200ad, Pope Innocent III was claiming to be the "Vicar of Christ," and the Supreme Sovereign of the Church and the world (Halley’s Bible Handbook, p. 776). For about 600 years during the Middle Ages, Roman bishops pointed to the "Donation of Constantine" as evidence of their right to preside over all the other bishops, but the document was later proven to be a fraud (Kung, p. 50).

Petrine Primacy
2,087 posted on 03/21/2007 10:44:13 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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