You write " The Bible was not written by men to explain mythically our place in the cosmos.
The Torah wasn't written by men at all. It was written by G-d 974 generations before Creation, in letters of black fire on a scroll of white fire. G-d dictated it to Moses letter-for-letter, and Moses wrote it down. How dare you reduce it to teaching general philosophical "truths" of "salvation history???"
I apologize for giving you that impression. I believe the Torah is inspired by God. I was trying to convey that the Bible is about real people and real events. Events that show how God has always had a plan of salvation for us. That is what I meant by salvation history. And I sure did not mean to reduce this to some kind of philosophical truth. I meant it to show why God would give us His word. Not just as some kind of study text but to reveal
Himself to us. He reveals Himself to us so that we may Know Him, worship Him and love Him. He reveals Himself to us so that we may submit to Him in humility and awe. He reveals Himself so that we can understand the greatest grief is to be separated from Him by our sins and the greatest joy is to be joined with Him through Jesus our Lord. I do not however believe the Bible was dictated word for word. So on that we will remain in disagreement.
" Do you honestly think the ancient Jews who first received the Torah and the other Scriptures spent their time asking what they had to do to be "saved?"
As I wrote before I am writing from a Catholic Christian view. I could not nor should I attempt to give the Jewish view and respect that you have the right of that. But I hope you do not mind some questions. Do Jews believe in the idea of original sin? Do Jews believe that personal sin separates us from God and that we need to atone to God for these sins in order to be reconciled to Him? I would think from reading the Bible the answer to the second question would be yes. If that is the case what happens if we die without being reconciled to God?
You wrote "So you're saying the stories and people of the TaNa"KH are universal Jungian archtypes rather than real persons and events? "
Again no that is not what I meant. I was trying to emphasize that the Bible's teachings are not just for the time and place in which they were written. And since I said it contained real people and real events I sure as heck don't think they are Jungian archtypes. The 10 commandments are True for everyone. Not just for the Jews that received them from Moses after he went up Mt. Sinai.
The prohibitions on homosexual sex found in the OT and NT are not just about misunderstanding loving committed gay relationships. It is for all time and for all people. God said no and it remains no.
You wrote " But Berei'shit Bara' teaches us only abstract spiritual lessons, and every detail is purely symbolical?"
Nope and I never said that.
You wrote " The Anglican church is one of the most liberal denominations in existence."
You are confusing the American branch of Anglicanism ,The Episcopal Church ,with the entire Anglican Communion. There are many orthodox Anglicans in the US who are now waiting to see what happens when the Primates Communique from Tanzania is discussed by the HOB. A rejection of the Communique will mean the Episcopal Church is out of the Anglican Communion. And the Catholic Curch certainly has African Bishops.
You wrote "But when the Torah written by G-d says something happened, then it happened. Yes, there are symbols and metaphors and spiritual truths in all these things, but the actual events related must also be held to be true. There are four senses of scripture (peshat, derash, remez, and sod). All four senses are present. This means that the literal sense (peshat) is valid alongside the other, spiritual meanings. You are saying that the scriptural assertions are true only symbolically and not also literally."
I agree with you. The actual events related must also be held to be true and I never said that scriptural assertions are true only symbolically and not also literally. I have said several times that God created the world out of nothingness. Where we disagree is I do not think 6 days has to mean six time periods of 24 hours. I do believe Eden was an actual place and that Adam and Eve were our first parents. Which is attested to in the Catechism and affirmed by Church teachings. Also I believe that any thing that God does is supernatural. So if the world's creation took longer than 6 days it is still a supernatural event.
You wrote " You seem to attribute to "faith" all things supernatural and to "reason" all things naturalistic and scientific"
No indeed I was saying that these things should not be separated but always combined in reaching our understanding of the world. The examples I gave are of what happens when one separates these two things. To use our knowledge to go against what God has revealed is evil.
We have the knowledge to perform abortions but God has shown us that life is sacred. To claim faith demands we not go to doctors ( some sects teach this) goes against the reasoning that God is the source of man's intellect and talents. So doctor's by healing illness are doing what God wants them to do. Both faith and reason should be put to use to glorify God.
You wrote " Likewise, when my mind tells me that it is faulty logic to accept at face value all the violations of natural law taught by the "new testament" and chr*stian history (when the "laws of nature" are fully uniform and operational)"
As I said before I am writing from a Catholic Christian view so it will at times conflict with the Jewish view. But I do not understand what you mean by violations of natural law taught in the NT? By natural law do you mean as is used in Catholic theology ( law written on man's heart) or physical laws such as gravity?
Thanks for a very civil discussion. If I remember you recently or will presently celebrate the Feast of Purim. I hope your celebration of Purim was or will be a joyful and blessed one.
If you find it offensive of me to write out God in full please let me know and I will follow your example and use G-d.
PS. I have to confess a vast ignorance. Just how does one get italics???
no.
The Torah was not written by men under the inspiration of G-d. Only the Ketuvim (the Hagiographa) was written in this way, and it is the lowest of the three tiers of the TaNa"KH. The Nevi'im (Prophets) were written under the influence of Prophetic visions, which is higher than Ruach HaQodesh ("Divine inspiration"). The Torah was not written by a human being at all by by G-d. G-d is its only author. It does not have a human author at all. Moses merely wrote down the Holy Letters at HaShem's dictation.
You have agreed that the persons and events of the Torah must be accepted as literal, historical facts in addition to all the higher spiritual meanings. However, stfassisi has linked to a page at the Vatican's official web site that endorses the scientific theories of evolution over a vast ages of time. These two positions are mutually contradictory. I don't care what anyone or any document says, to hold one position one must deny the other. This cannot be denied.
After corresponding with Catholics on this thread and via PM's I conclude that the Catholic Church does not teach TOTAL inerrancy. It obviously teaches something it defines as inerrancy, but this is far from TOTAL inerrancy.
The author of the article posted at the head of this thread rejected Protestantism because the churches no longer accepted "Biblical inerrancy," which she has supposedly found in the Catholic Church. If her definition of "inerrancy" is the insufficient partial variety which the Catholic Church holds then she will be right at home. If, however, she believes that the Catholic Church teaches TOTAL inerrancy then she is in for quite a shock and probably will not stay in the Catholic Church.
The summary of my conclusion: the Catholic Church teaches "inerrancy." The Catholic Church does not teach TOTAL inerrancy. Too bad.
Thank you for your Purim greetings. You might be interested to learn that the events related in the Megillah ("Book of Esther") are also real historical events that happened exactly as written (otherwise the prayers could not specifically thank and bless G-d for doing these things). As a matter of fact, apparently Mordekhai and 'Ester are buried in Hamadan (the ancient Median capital of Ecbatana). Why they were not buried in Shushan I do not know. Perhaps local hostility?
Thank you for your patience throughout this correspondence.