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Are you implying that Protestants in sin leave a church because they disagree with the judgment of that sin? Or are you implying that Protestants can't sin?

First of all, of course protestants sin. Only one of our belief systems asserts that a created being could be free from sin, and it's not mine.

Second, protestants leave a denomination for a number of reasons. My previous post asserted that one reason is that many protestants look for alignment of their personal beliefs with the teachings of the denomination. If that particular protestant is being led by the Holy Spirit, that will lead him to the denomination that most purely reflects the teachings of scripture. That's a good thing. If the Holy Spirit is not involved, he will find the denomination that teaches what his itching ears want to hear. That's a bad thing.

A Catholic in open disagreement with the Church regarding abortion etcetera mostly understands that they are in a state of sin.

Not hardly. I have family members, lifelong Catholics, who have attended weekly mass all their lives that do not believe contraception, homosexual behavior, or premarital sex are sinful. One of them doesn't believe in a literal Hell. Yes, they know that their beliefs are contrary to Church teachings, but they believe the Church is wrong, therefore they don't believe they are in a state of sin. They have no problem warming the pews and taking the Eucharist weekly. Just like the overwhelming majority of American Catholics that disagree with the Church's teachings on contraception. It's not that they know it's sinful but choose to accept it anyway; it's that they flat-out disagree with the Church. Now, you may assert that "Catholics" such as these aren't really Catholics. You wouldn't get an argument from me. However, they see themselves as Catholics. Most importantly, they are virtually never challenged. That was the point of my post. Yes, you can point to a published set of rules, but if the vast majority of "members" are flouting them, what's the point? Where are the Priests? Why aren't they weekly admonishing their flock, at least to abstain from Communion? Twenty years as a Catholic, I never heard a Priest do that.

armydoc,

I regret reading that you have lifelong family members who profess to be Catholic but don't believe in the Church's moral teachings. The teachings are there. And so is the reality of hell. And no, they are not really Catholic. And yes, you are right that they think of themselves as Catholics. The deception is not in the Church's teachings--it is in the heart of the individual.

I taught Natural Family Planning for many years. Those who came to me for counseling in NFP learned the whole story--the Biblical perspective of the wrong of contraception---something that they never before had put into a Scriptually rich context. I also had a significant number of Protestants who asked me to teach them NFP. When they asked for Scriptural references to support the practice of contraceptive-free marital love, I gave it to them from something that I carefully prepared. I had to be certified to teach NFP in my diocese. The Protestants I taught did not have such a requirement and went on to teach it on a one-on-one basis to their own.

It is also true that in many cases priests and bishops did not challenge their flock. This is a sad thing to have to acknowledge, especially for someone committed to the truth of these teachings.

You say "if the vast majority of 'members' are flouting them, what's the point"?

The point is that those who are faithful have a burden to bear, a cross to take up, a commission to accept, and all the time they are relying on the Lord alone to strengthen them and fill them with His grace. Those who accepted the true moral teachings will be the ones having families, remaining faithful to the Gospel, and bringing up children who will bear the marks of fidelity.

I have to be honest and say what has always been true--it isn't a numbers game. It's a quality game. Those who have stayed the course may be a smaller number than should have been, but they can make a difference and I personally think that at this time, they are beginning to make a difference. I am one who really does feel that the Church is entering a new era; the time of surviving a culture run amuck, the crucible of the priest abuse scandals, and the (too prevalent) absence of shepherding is coming to a close. I see the quality of new candidates for the priesthood, the emerging interest in prayer and ongoing Bible study and the moral high ground in many of our younger Catholics now.

Why wouldn't I have that hope in me that St. Paul speaks of?

"Behold, I make all things new". ("the man who is in Christ Jesus is a new creation")

" I have family members..."

I'm sorry you have family members who don't believe in what they have learned. I'm sorry your experience was contrary to what you learned. There are pew warmers in every denomination. I'm quite sure.

Twenty years is not a long time. I've been a Catholic longer than some people on this board have lived. I've seen the damage that has come into the culture and thus into the church.

We weren't promised that this wouldn't be a struggle or a continued battle over time. The Church is a visible armed presence on the battlefield. Our visible arms are the sacraments and especially the Eucharist.

The battle is joined and we will ultimately win, but not without loss and pain. The terrible split created by Protestants instead of working within the Church, and the continued fractures as each denomination pulls apart as the "spirit" leads those who refuse to hear is a scandal.

Times are changing now. The Holy Spirit is leading a renewal of the Church through our Pope and our past Pope, John Paul. Satan continues to assault the Church and use people to create chaos and sin.

I can imagine that just before the appearance of St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Charles Borromeo, Pius IV chaos and confusion, the hallmark of a Satanic battle was terrific. The Holy Spirit without fail places those who are called to renew the Church.

It is not the Church that fails: It is the people who do not avail themselves of the many Graces the Church contains.

Have I attended Mass when I had some suspicion about a priest? Yes. The priest was removed and retired when the Bishop was informed. Did the Bishop know? I doubt it. Our new Bishop of the Diocese and our new priests are quite orthodox and the Spirit of Renewal in our church is creating more and more vocations.

The difference is this: I believe in the tenets of the Church. I fully believe in the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and in the Church. I believe in everything the Church teaches.

I believe this because I read and read the Bible and the commentary and the Holy Fathers. I discern what God wishes and grants me.

And because I know that it is my duty as a Roman Catholic to enlighten the blind and not to run when faced with contention or error or sin. Others may and I pity them because the fullness of Christ is missing in their lives.

The Holy Spirit is always with the Church.